Sign up for our newsletter

Do Vancouver Men Suck?

What do women think of Vancouver men? Not much, it seems. Has our physically active but culturally insular social scene killed dating in this city?
 |  66 Comments  |  Login or Register to Add Yours
"Guys have lost the idea of what girls want on a date." Marco Cibola
Additional Images click to enlarge

What do women think of Vancouver men? Not much, it seems. Has our physically active but culturally insular social scene killed dating in this city?

Natalie, Elise, and Tracey are drinking pinot grigio in the Commune Café at Nelson and Seymour. Tracey, who's in marketing, wears an electric-blue dress and flicks her bright blond hair over her shoulder. Elise, a tall brunette with a ready laugh who does business development for a firm downtown, is in a classic navy sheath. Natalie is home for a visit from grad school in Ontario; she's a curvy blond in a flowered dress. (All names are pseudonyms.) In their mid 20s and friends since they went to high school in North Van, they're attractive, smartly put together, and fit. They hike the Chief, do the Grouse Grind, ski, bike the seawall, and kayak. This evening, they're participating in another favourite local pastime—dissing Vancouver men.

Together they sketch a composite picture of a passive guy with no plan, uninterested and uninteresting. The males they remember from high school typically still live at home, without much motivation to date, much less to rise in the world. Even those who've left their parents' house, they complain, are laid-back to a fault, too lazy or inept to make small talk in a bar, ask a woman out, make reservations, or dress appropriately. Natalie sums it up: "Guys have lost the idea of what girls want on a date."

Tracey is tired of spending the evening in a chic Whistler bar with guys dressed "for video games in the basement: baseball caps and baggy T-shirts." Natalie adds, "They dress down, so they act down." And what used to be called common courtesy now looks freakishly uncommon. Recently, when a man went to help Tracey with her suitcase, it was so unusual that she thought at first he was stealing it. She says she gets on the bus in six-inch heels, laden with packages, and no man offers her his seat. Elise claims hardly any man her age has ever held a door for her. "Chivalry died years ago," Tracey says, "and it's buried six feet under."

Let's stop right there. Before we continue, two important grains of salt have to be added to this unappetizing stodge. First, it is a truth universally acknowledged that a single woman, whether she lives in Paris, Hong Kong, or San Francisco, is convinced that the single men in her town are uniquely deficient in the qualities she seeks in a mate. It's highly likely that as the Vancouver women are lamenting the sorry state of the local males, their Finnish counterparts are doing the same thing with equal energy over breakfast in a Helsinki café.

Second, single people in 2011, particularly millennials, are caught in a difficult moment that's not limited to Vancouver. The titles of recent books and articles say it all: Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men Into Boys, by Kay Hymowitz; Men to Boys: The Making of Modern Immaturity, by Gary Cross; "The End of Men," by Hanna Rosin in the Atlantic. Simply put, the post-industrial economy, which rewards higher education, communication skills, and the ability to sit down and concentrate, favours women. They now outperform men in post-secondary education (for every two BAs earned by men, three are earned by women), representation in middle management, and, increasingly, income. Faced with society's declining interest in physical strength, stamina, and whatever else they might bring to the table, young men are retreating into what Hymowitz calls "pre-adulthood."

Editor's Choice Comment

Recent Comments


Excellent article. Although somewhat biased and more of a female’s perspective on the matter, it’s about time someone touched on this very important subject.

The fact is that is that this is a complex and multi-dimensional issue. This is a deep topic that can be discussed at length. But I’ll try to briefly touch on some of the main issues as I see them, from a Vancouver man’s perspective.

First of all, a bit about myself. I’m a Vancouver resident in my early 30s. I’m a professional, and spend about half of my time overseas on business and vacation throughout the year, most of which are in Western Europe. I also quite often travel to Eastern Canada (Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa), and like to frequent the US, specifically LA, and San Diego. I consider myself to be physically attractive, successful, educated, fun, and overall well rounded. I do not consider myself to be a “typical” Vancouver male, as I was not born in Vancouver, and have been living off and on in Vancouver for the last 20 years. I don’t ski, follow hockey, have done the grind only a handful of times, but never really timed myself, and I try to dress well. I follow men’s fashion trends from the top designers every season, and keep a healthy wardrobe of designer suits, jackets, sport coats, and more informal, yet fashionable casual clothes. I associate with a group of men with similar tastes and lifestyles. We all own or own downtown condos, and have not lived with our parents since having left for university well over a decade ago.

So let’s talk about some of the key issues here.

The man issue is universal, most prominently North American, and maybe slightly more prevalent in Vancouver due to reasons I’ll discuss:

During the last few decades, the Western definition of being a man has changed, and has become somewhat skewed. The days of “men being men”, of James Bond’s Sean Connery and Marcus Aurelius are long gone. Traits such as being masculine, cool, confident, decisive, romantic, ambitious, classy and fun seem to have dwindled to almost non-existence in many places. This is a result of several trends and movements in Western society. One being, the Women’s movement. Without going into detail, the Women’s movement has hit North American men so hard, that much of it has symbolically castrated men. This movement has become so ingrained in North American culture that it has become an accepted fact, and the norm. Just turn on the TV and watch a few commercials, a few minutes of popular sitcoms, and Hollywood movies. The men are generally incompetent, boyish, whiney, and weak. The inept man knocks over the glass of juice, and the woman comes to the rescue by wagging her finger with hand on the hip, shaking her head with disappointment at the moron male. The man stands there scratching head much like an ape, trying to figure something out, and the woman walks in to save the day. She rolls her eyes and fixes whatever foolish mistake the incompetent man has made. The man stands there like a buffoon, baffled by what just took place, but is appreciative that the woman was there to fix what he did wrong. Boys and men are constantly bombarded by this type of social reinforcement all day, every day. So no wonder many men perceive themselves as inept, who in some cases need a woman to take them shopping and dress them. This kind of North American cultural reinforcement is also exasperated by fathers who either don’t know how, or don’t bother to teach their sons how to be men. Many fathers of the baby boom era, who suffered from overbearing, disciplinarian fathers, have failed to teach their sons how to be men. Creating a crisis for this generation, and ones to follow. Men have lost their “initiation” phases into manhood, and never symbolically “graduate” from being a boy, to becoming a man. This results from aloof fathers who failed to teach their sons fundamentals of being a mature man, and well intentioned and overbearing mothers who raised “nice boys”, or “mama’s boys” who need their mommy to buy them underwear and clean their rooms. As a result, these “man-boys” grow up to be frustrated, confused, passive-aggressive whiny boys in a man’s body. They try to fulfill this critical gap in their lives by resorting to passive-aggressive acts of macho behaviour and violence in public, trying to create a unique tough guy persona as the drug dealer, MMA fighter, devout sports spectator, outdoorsman, in your face businessman, etc. The fact is that many men have lost their ways in North American culture. A current interesting phenomenon is a growing underground “men’s movement”, that has also become big business for the “pick up artist”, and “seduction” scenes. To answer your question, this is why men are forking out up to $5000 for self-improvement. The ones who’ve realized that they’re missing these critical elements, are now trying to make up for the lost lessons by taking these crash courses in self-improvement. The sad reality is that most men have no idea what they’re missing, the critical features of being a man. So, they don’t even bother to seek help.

As I briefly described some fundamental issues of men in general these days, let’s take a look at Vancouver men.

The Vancouver city demographic has a lot to do with it, but not fully to blame:

The Vancouver dating scene is a unique scenario. And before going into the “Vancouver men issues”, let me add that Vancouver women are just as equally to blame in many aspects. I’ll explain that in a bit. But before that, let’s look at the city.

The fact is that Vancouver is still a small city, comparatively to “true” Metropolitan cities such as Toronto, New York, Los Angeles, etc. In fact, given Vancouver’s size, demographics, and population, Vancouver is far from being even considered a Metropolitan city. The city of Vancouver has a population of just over 600,000 (Metro population of a bit over 2,000,000), with a downtown core population of just 80,000. That’s smaller than the population of most major US university campuses. In comparison, New York has a population of over 19,000,000 (Yes 19 Million), Los Angeles with a population of over 15,000,000, with over 4,000,000 being in the core, and London with the population of close to 14,000,000, with a core population of close to 8,000,000, a far cry from Vancouver’s 80,000 (Yes, 80 thousand). So anyone who complains about Vancouver being “small” and “boring” for a “Metro” city really needs to get on a plane and go to some real Metropolitan cities. The point is that with the “small city” persona, you get small city mentality. Other than the immigrants of Vancouver, most Vancouverites have moved to the city from even smaller surrounding places in the quest to live the “big city life” in “Metro Vancouver”. They have very little world travel experience, and have lived in the Vancouver “bubble” most of their lives. So they really “don’t know what they don’t know”, and are quite content living the “big city” life in Vancouver. As a result, if you come to Vancouver from a true big city, you’re going to have a hard time adjusting to the lack of social life. And lack of variety in men and women. Vancouver is so small that everyone seems to know everyone, the same people hang out at the same places over and over again, and everyone seems to be in everyone else’s business. But again, these are quirks of living in a smaller city.


Although Vancouver has somewhat “mild” weather compared to other cold Canadian cities, Vancouver really has only a few months of decent weather in a year where people can get out and mingle in the open. And if you’re used to spending summers in sunny beach destinations such as Mexico, Greece, Southern Spain, etc, you know that the Vancouver sun is not enough to comfortably hit the beach with your clothes off and not risk catching a cold by the end of the day. The endless months of rain also really put a damper on people’s moods and have documented psychological and physiological ramifications leading to deficiencies and chemical imbalances such as vitamin D deficiencies, decrease Testosterone in men, mood disorders, and depression to name a few. Not to mention, that going out in the rain is not the most pleasant experience, and quite often enough of an excuse for the unmotivated to just stay in and watch TV instead.

So without going into too much detail about how the city itself in many ways hinders a healthy social lifestyle, let’s look at why the Vancouver men and women are the way they are.

Vancouver breeds, and attracts mediocrity:

Given the fact that Vancouver lacks many of the things true Metropolitan cities possess, Vancouver does not generally attract the young, ambitious, go-getter types. In fact, it detracts any such person. Like myself, many of my friends who were very goal oriented with big plans in life, all ended up leaving Vancouver for bigger cities with more opportunities, better study and career choices, and much more options for spending your hard earned cash in your first years of building your dream career, and living it up while you’re still young and have money in your wallet. Vancouver does not have a major “corporate” scene with many young professionals loosening their ties after work and hitting happy hour after a day of battling it out in the stock market. Vancouver’s wealthy are generally older, and many make their money overseas. We don’t have major corporations in the downtown core, and large numbers of young ambitious men and women who work and play hard. As a result, many of the guys and gals who stay in Vancouver dominate the labour sector and can barely scrounge enough cash to pay for their small rental condos in downtown that they may be sharing with a few others. Many of the attractive females work in the restaurants, boutiques, and salons, and are generally not very ambitious and some have a hard time carrying an intelligent conversation as they are limited in their life experiences. Not saying that mature and intelligent women don’t exist in Vancouver, It’s just that the former seem to dominate the social scenes. Vancouver is the only city where girls are content and quite proud of being a server at a restaurant, calling themselves with pride a “Cactus girl” etc. Many men on the other hand take pride in being small time drug dealers, and take pride in being doormen and bartenders. Some have family money that they may have invested in small businesses, and are content managing a small business, or working for their fathers. The fact is that social status in Vancouver is very bizarre. But, this is a result of an immature and inexperienced demographics of people in their 20s and 30s living in Vancouver.

The combination of Vancouver being dominated by the unambitious, lack of career choices with decent salaries, an overinflated housing market, and lack of choices in socializing scenes, reaching a certain level of maturity in Vancouver can be very challenging. Due to these issues, many end up relying on living with their parents for a very long time, lack travel, work and life experience, and are generally immature compared to their European and Asian counterparts in the same age range.

Although both sexes in Vancouver generally seem to suffer from the lack of ambition thing, but I guess this is more of an issue for women as they would want an ambitious man, as opposed to men who care more about looks than the woman’s career ambitions.

I have approached and dated girls in Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Dubai, and many other places around the world, and I have never seen women in those places behave the way some of the women in Vancouver behave.

Just as I pointed out several fundamental missing elements in men, especially in Vancouver, the same issues exist with women in Vancouver. Vancouver is also filled with girls trapped in a woman’s body. Vancouver has many attractive women who really go out of their way to “flaunt it”, yet at the same time lack the maturity to know “what they really want”. A mature and sophisticated woman “knows what she wants”. Unfortunately, many women in Vancouver don’t reach this stage until they’re in their late 30s. Many end up spending their weekdays working unsatisfying jobs, and spending their weekends in drunken stupors running around in high heels from club to club, getting validation from random guys and regretting it for half of the following week. And continue the cycle once again the following weekend. By the time they start to realize what they want out of a guy, and out of life, many are pushing 40, and now have to compete for the “good men” with 20 some year olds. Vancouver is the only city I’ve seen where hundreds of girls take hours to get ready in skimpy and sexy clothes and refuse to wear a jacket in the winter just to walk around downtown to have guys look at them for validation. I’ve seen packs of girls in mini-skirts and short dresses walking around Yaletown, Gastown, and the Granville strip, as they shiver in the cold, just to get some social proof and validation from the guys who care to look at them. But that’s where it ends, where most seem to just want the “validation”, and just to feel good for that moment, or night by having a few drunk guys stare at them and approach them with cheesy lines. But if the same women are approached by a “man’s man” as most complain no longer exist, many of the same women react in the most abhorrent, immature, and offensive manner only unique to Vancouver women. The fact is that normal, well adjusted, psychologically well women don’t behave like this.

Just ask any guy in Vancouver and they’ll tell you endless stories of immature and offensive acts and gestures by immature “girl-women”. I cracked up once as I saw a young good looking European man in downtown who looked like a tourist ask one of these girls for directions, and she responded by saying “I have a boyfriend” and gave him a dirty look as her drunk friend pulled her away as though she was saving her. The poor guy stood there holding his little map, just baffled at what just took place. I’ve approached women in lounges and bars and have had them tell me that “they know the deal”, they knew “what I was doing” etc, etc. Well, I hope they knew the deal, that’s why people go out, to socialize and meet people! In some cases, even as the conversation was going well, another immature “friend” ran across the room and violently dragged her away as though she was about to be sexually assaulted. All these behaviours are reminiscent of high school dances, or interactions between elementary school boys and girls on the playground. An example of another true story, I watched a well-dressed, classy looking young man approach a woman in her mid 20s. As he smiled and said hi, she actually yelled “eww!” and stormed off. The poor guy stood there, holding his drink for several minutes as he digested what just took place. He did nothing wrong, but was a victim of an immature, poorly adjusted Vancouver woman. These are just a few of the record breaking observations in immaturity I’ve witnessed in the Vancouver night scene.

So, when faced with some of the mentioned female behaviours in Vancouver, it’s not hard to explain why many guys who are already struggling with their masculine identity issues, refuse to approach women. No wonder many of these already wounded men refuse to approach women all together.

Again, this does not make up for the fundamental self-development issues Vancouver men also need to deal with, and I don’t intend to paint all Vancouver women with the same brush. I’ve met many beautiful, mature, and well-adjusted women in Vancouver as well. But they’re very hard to come by.

Now as far as stories of 60 year old women having issues finding men. Well, if you’re 60, have been divorced, and have dated hundreds of men without success of being able to develop a meaningful relationship, it’s not hard to pinpoint the source of the problem. In a case like that, one must take responsibility and stop blaming “Vancouver men”, and thinking a Jewish, Muslim, black, or white man will save the day. That’s typical of a woman who never grew up and doesn’t know what she wants. The fact is that a true healthy relationship takes a lot of compromise, and if you don’t reach the level of maturity to be able to compromise, then you’ll always be single and pissed off. You have no one to blame but yourself.

If you think men from other nationalities and religions may suit you better, then I encourage you to go and test this theory. You may find the one. I know of men and women who met their life partners in a different country, or a different continent. But this shouldn’t stop you from looking within and dealing with your own issues as opposed to trying to search the world for someone who will “tolerate” your bad qualities.

The funny thing is that when I lived in Italy, I dated a beautiful Italian girl who always told me what a great guy I was and how Italian men were such selfish jerks, and how Canadian men were so gret, etc. I was told the same thing by my ex-German, and Brazilian girlfriends. So, if you think you can deal with a Brazilian, Greek, Italian, or any man other than “Vancouver men”, then go and explore that. Let us know how that goes.

Although I have a lot more to say and can discuss this issue for a very long time, I’ll leave it at this.

by Alex Vancouver Guy on Feb 22 2012 at 5:43 AM

I think there is a total disconnect between what women and men expect in a dating partner and what is reality. I think,. because of self help gurus and (failed at relationships) Psychologists advice; both women and men have a long (instructed) list of things they expect in a dating partner; possible relationship partner. what is missing is reality; which would let these dating want to bes know: they should he thrilled and over the top happy that they meet someone who meets 1/4 of the list of expectations they have in a dating relationship. In fact, a long term relationship requires that one accept that they will meet and date a person who, if lucky, sill meet 1/4 of one's expectations and requirements; and that one should feel lucky that anyone would want to date you; with your long list of "faults"; as defined by any list of requirements. Everyone of us should feel lucky that someone would want to date us, given our long list of "faults"... Feel lucky that someone would want to date you at all. with your list of guy I would date requirements; and given your (and all of our) long list of faults. Stop requiring things and accept what is in front of you: that is the way to happiness in dating. No long list of what you require in a partner will make you happy. Accepting someone with all of the things that drive you a little bit crazy, is what will bring you true happiness. Be glad someone wants to spend time with you, given all of your faults; and you'll find the truth about dating and long term relationships. You have your own long list of faults. Be glad someone would spend time with you given all the things you don't meet on their list, and you'll discover what makes a relationship work.

by mcbuttocksby on Feb 19 2012 at 10:33 PM

After hearing about this article on the news last night... I wanted to weigh in. I agree with everyone's comments (for the most part). I'm not originally from Vancouver but I've lived here for many years now. I have to admit I've struggled to meet men - I find it sooo hard to read the men in Vancouver compared to other cities and countries. At first I would talk to anybody who'd listen but slowly over the years my confidence has waned and now I'd rather chew my arm off that approach someone. I'm considered fairly attractive (by most people - both male and female), and I personally feel I am! I've done the "smiling at guys, making comments at every opportunity, and made LOTS of eye contact" to encourage men - but to no avail! In fact I've started to feel like maybe there's something wrong with me... although I find that hard to believe but when you get no response or blank stares what else are you to think? I find the men here seem uninterested, too lazy to make the effort or would rather have someone 20 years younger than me (I'm 41). I'm now considering moving to another province because it can be so lonely here... it doesn't really work when you're open to meeting someone (and I don't expect perfection), and it isn't reciprocated! And I see several guys on a daily basis I'd go on a date with... if only I had some encouragement to approach them! Not all of us are money-hungry and interested in hot shot men with fancy careers... some of us just want someone who'll accept us, love us, respect us, and have fun with us!

by Cowgirl on Feb 17 2012 at 9:28 AM

You know - this article is all based on a few women - who are more than likely basing all of their "attractiveness" on what they've achieved - based on what they're wearing or how much money they make or how educated they are - no mention of what their personalities are like.

Vancouver is one of those cities where there are many women (I'm a woman but not part of this new Vancouver "culture") - where women slap on some heels and designer clothes and they think they're all that - which they are NOT. Stop trying to control men and look at what you're doing to contribute to the situation. Change your attitude. At the end of the day, you can't say that your designer clothes make you who you are - and if you can, then you're just too shallow. What matters is who you are within.

I have noticed plenty of women being controlling to the point where if things don't go exactly the way they expect it, they turn crazy or criticize the other person - but the true question is - who can live up to your expectations? And why do you have to feel the urge to control what a guy does or how he behaves? If you like him and can accept him for who he is and how he dresses etc - then great - if not, then MOVE ON - don't complain. There are plenty of great men in this city - and I'm tired of hearing about women who are just so complicated for no good reason - playing games, never knowing what they really want - it's just all head games and who would want to be with such a woman?

If you're doing the Grouse Grind to pick up a guy - don't bother doing it. If you're doing it because YOU like it and YOU like to be that fit - then do it. Don't participate in activities just to meet men - it shows. Live your lives and be complete people FIRST. There's nothing worse than a desperate woman who walks around with this "air of entitlement" - so sick of it.

Obviously - the designer clothes that you buy and the high profile career are not really keeping you happy - you still need love and companionship - find out what makes you tick and makes you feel happy - the rest will fall into place.

And for pete's sakes - just let the guys be guys - my feeling is they've been emasculated enough with all these freakishly controlling and overly aggressive women out there.

by nena on Feb 6 2012 at 12:39 PM

Ok I have lived in Vancouver for 60 years and so have dated in my 20's, 30's married then back in the dating scene in my 50's and now 60's. I have talked to women of all ages while out on the town and the complaint is similar across the ages. Attractive, well dressed women who get all ready to go out and are usually disappointed with what they see when they go out. Guys who can't dress for the occasion, who are more interested in watching the sports screens then appreciating the beautiful women who are there. Perhaps it's because men have so much available to choose from (women apparently outnumber men here 5 to l ) but there is definitely a reluctance on the men's side to put themselves out, up their game, man up, step up to the get the point. When I was younger if men were interested they would ask you out, take you for dinner..but now men think asking you out is "how about I come to your place with a bottle of wine". The least amount of effort to "seal the deal" is what I've encountered. So I think one of the points missed here is that most guys attitude seems to be how about we have sex first and then I'll decide whether to take you out or spend any money on you. Have we women brought about this lack of effort because we've made sex too available?? Are we really accepting so little and giving so much? I do believe that for men sex is their prime motivation for making the effort so if they can get it without much effort it makes them complacent and sex, porn ...certainly hasn't helped us...but perhaps somehow we women need to start expecting a little more effort from these men and teach them how to treat us.

by Experienceddater on Feb 5 2012 at 11:29 AM
by martypants on Jan 30 2012 at 2:54 PM

I'm from Victoria, I lived in Vancouver for 3 years, I've also lived in Calgary, Toronto, and Winnipeg (Winnipeg may be an ugly city, but the women here are actually down to earth!) I work for an airline so I get to see different cities on a weekly basis, and even from my time living in Vancouver, it was by far the worst dating scene I've ever encountered.

I dress very well for a guy. I don't own bad clothing and put time and care into my appearance. This is a reaction I recently got when approaching a woman in Stanley Park. The only word that had left my mouth was a friendly, "Hi". She immediately responded, "Are you gay?" to which I responded, "Excuse me?" She replied, "You're dressed too well to be straight." WHAT. THE. *UCK. She was a total bitch. Women can't complain about guys not dressing well, and then, when they do, cast them off as gay before they even open their mouths.

Lastly, I will also say this...Working for an airline, the crowd flying out of Vancouver gives off the snobbiest, most self centered, 'I am SO much better than you" attitude out of any city I've flown into. I loved living in Vancouver for the outdoor lifestyle it offers, but I'd rather fly into Saskatoon, Halifax, or St. John's than fly to Vancouver just so I wouldn't have to deal with the pretentious Vancouverites; and I'm FROM the West Coast, but it's true.

by wc84 on Jan 23 2012 at 8:16 PM

Maybe I'm just too lazy, but lets consider this the official response to “Do Vancouver Men Suck?” ( I read the one comment the editors picked out ( and I thought, yeah I can do better.
The basic thesis of the article “Do Vancouver Men Suck” is that the women of Vancouver collectively are much more educated, accomplished, ambitious, put together and athletic than their lazy man-child male counterparts and thus can’t find anyone worthy of their attention in the city.

The response that the editors selected from the comments was from a guy that failed at hitting on women on the bus, in the park and at the beach, I’m really guessing that it’s not that Vancouver women are snooty (except for maybe those in Yaletown), it’s just that, probably, there is a mismatch between the commenter’s level of attractiveness and women he pursued in random parts of the city. Also there are some basic rules around things that are “cheesy.”
Before I start this material I just want to state a few facts / assumptions. For the record, I’m originally from Calgary (born and raised), but have been living on the coast for a decade so I consider myself a coastal person. Second, I’m a little older – I just turned 36, so perhaps this man-child thing is common among the generation ahead of me, but not mine. Third I assume the article “Do Vancouver Men Suck?” really applies to “urban coastal people” – which in my mind includes the residents of Vancouver, Victoria, Whistler, etc, but not Bella Bella or the Queen Charlottes.

Before I get any further I guess I should state that a coastal woman is definitely more my kind of woman, a little more athletic, a little more independent and a little more casual than women in the rest of the country.
Lets start with “the Calgary thing” first as that might be distorting my view of things. I moved to the coast at 26 and was blown away by how attractive the women here are. I still will always remember on my first day after moving here how a couple of girls working at the seven eleven near the university were really attractive. Despite going to school with 1,500 students in highschool, and 20,000 in university, I saw more attractive women on the coast during my first week than I did in my previous adult years combined. It wasn’t just that they were pretty, they also seemed quite friendly. I had this discussion with a classmate, also from Calgary, about how to react to a woman that started a conversation with us…we had no idea what to do, it had just never happened before. We were especially blown away by the first question not being "what do you make" (in Calgary dating circles this usually comes before they ask what your name is).

In case people don’t know Calgary is an exceedingly male predominant city because of the oil and gas industry, a large percentage of engineers and accountants (professions which are still male dominated) in Canada move to Calgary. In Calgary a legitimate husband screening criteria for an attractive woman can be a 7 figure net worth, no one will think less of you. Every girl that whines about the men on the coast should just get her ass to Calgary. I’ve known so many coastal women that couldn’t find a man move to Calgary and be in a solid relationship within a year….
Do I have a skewed view of dating because of my age? Is the generation younger than me less ambitious than mine? I don’t think so, I have a great group of friends in Victoria and they range in age from low 20’s to 50. The men in their early 20’s are no less accomplished personally and professionally than the women. Victoria is a government town and government is predominantly female. Thus women in Victoria should be "more accomplished" relative to the males, than in Vancouver. The men I know in their 20's are as accomplished as their female counterparts, with careers in finance, self employed, trades or jobs in smaller companies. My personal metric for "accomplishment" is based on income adjusted for happiness (thus if your professional and almost have a six figure salary, but are miserable, and you are less accomplished than a tradesman with his own business and who is happy).

Finally, I should state my dating credentials, I’m not some indoor cat always pining at the screen door to be let out, but a well tenured dater, prior to my most recent ex-girlfriend, in one year I went on at least 50 dates (thanks eHarmony™ ), many of them with women in Vancouver, so I think I have a reasonably informed opinion on dating on the coast. One thing I noticed about Vancouver women was that they were not willing to invest the time in a relationship that required a ferry ride… so despite all the accomplishment, maybe they are a bit lazy too?

The one assertion that I found to ring a little false about Coastal men relates to athletic pursuits. The article implied that these highly attractive intelligent women were out skiing, running on the seawall, kayaking while their male counterparts languished in a basement playing video games. In my experience if you take any athletic pursuit aside from a running group (mountain biking, boarding, surfing i.e. anything that is fun + exercise [ I really wanted to use the phrase "linear suffer-fest" but couldn't quite squeeze it in, wait I just did.... self high five]) you will find more males that females.
Take for example adult intramural co-ed sports (Dodgeball, Volleyball, Softball, Ultimate), there are almost always more men than women, and you usually have to scrape to meet the quota for the women on your team. Or the next time your in lift line in Whistler (whether boarding or mountain biking) quickly do a count of men and women in their mid 20s to mid 30`s, men will always outnumber women.
Secondly the data point on educational attainment, "For every two BAs earned by men, three are earned by women" - I have a BA and an MBA, so I can say this, most people who have a BA.... its isn't a great predictor of "accomplishment" - whether you measure it by income, artistic, professional or personal achievement. When you look at undergraduate degrees that directly lead to jobs; Commerce, Engineering & Nursing –you have a much more gender balanced profile (the Engineers and Nurses balance each other out – commerce is 50/50). We live in a really gender balanced society, a woman no longer has to "marry up" - she can achieve on her own. Don’t aspire to that guy is/ or will be “more accomplished” based purely on income/education. Its okay if he doesn’t have a degree, if he’s handy it will save you a lot of money on home renos later in life.

Vancouver has some truly amazing restaurants, and despite being a jeans and t-shirt guy, wearing a hoody and Sanuk’s to a nice meal just isn’t on. I will admit that coastal men dress down quite a bit relative to men in other cities but there is some economic justification for that. Most coastal men have a few nice suits, whereas a man in Toronto or Montreal has a closet full. Wanna know why? There is nothing to do outside in those towns… your average coastal man has more invested in gear than men in other cities by a wide margin. And in case you don’t know gear, isn’t cheap, between, bikes, boards (snow &surf), climbing rig, camping gear, snow gear, biking clothes, wetsuit etc… the average coastal man has about 10,000 invested in gear…. Or 10 decent ish suits.
The next time you feel offended that on a first coffee date the guy shows up in soft-shell jacket, its not because he doesn’t care, its probably because he’s going climbing or biking after. And just a side note but an Arc'teryx soft shell costs about the same as a Hugo Boss sport coat, and is a way more practical use of funds for the average coastal male.
To summarise, based on what I have seen coastal men are athletic, aren’t less accomplished than similarly aged women and perhaps spend more money on gear than suits. Coastal men really aren’t that bad, so what is a coastal girl to do to find a man? Well for starters – maybes she simply revise their outdoor activity list to find a better mate. As one of my friend`s mom`s told her – “Your not going to find a man in Yoga or Book Club” take up mountain biking, trust me on this. She could also change her framework as to what defines “accomplishment.”
The most accomplished (Diplomat, double BA Econ & French, MBA), attractive (former model), balanced (manages career, marriage, her relationship) I’ve ever met, her now husband, when they first met he was a red-seal chef, which still requires a lot of drive and determination. If you want to “marry up” in terms of height, that’s an entirely different rant.
Mennirnir í Reykjavík sjúga
दिल्ली में पुरुषों सूअर हैं

Basically wherever you are in the world, your probably going to complain about the men in your city, town, village / hamlet. If you’re a single woman on the Coast who is fed up with coastal men, move to Calgary, trust me on this. Just a bit of warning – being a woman in Calgary is sort of like being the lone girl at a star-trek convention, sure the odds are good, but the goods are kinda odd.

by mdant2476 on Jan 20 2012 at 3:38 PM

Check out Chris Hall's provocative response: Do Vancouver Women Blow?

by KaylaOgden on Jan 18 2012 at 11:10 AM

"Katherine Ashenburg's article (in Vancouver Magazine) focuses on how men here are a bunch of ski bums who dress like teenagers and have no clue about how to court women."

Sounds like old "Cobwebs Katherine" hasn't been down to Mountain Madness Mondays @ The Cellar Nightclub... Seems like a lot of beautiful happens there every night!

btw- Why do you have a dinosaur who hasn't been on a date since Trudeau was Prime Minister writing a story on Dating in Vancouver in the year 2012.

by MountainMadness on Jan 16 2012 at 6:36 PM

Complaining about the lack of interest men take in Vancouver women? That is so funny. You can blame men for not complying with what a woman might want but really that is just a symptom of where the problem starts. So you want your cake and eat it too huh? Guess you will end up eating ice cream. Let's want a real man that behaves like a woman. You want a man who is a warrior and can provide for your security. You want everything! Honey, men just won't comply with that much. All the single men I have asked said that they simply wanted an affectionate woman and not one who is pushy or more than assertive. It is hard enough dealing with your hormones. If you really could tell the difference between what you need and want you want, you would be approachable and you would find that man. The tables have turned because of the workplace. Many women are making more money than men and they want a man who is equal. Other women are still looking for a man who will support them financially. It is all about money/power. While I am certain that there are women who are gentle, they are hard to find. Gay men are much more accepting of differences and that results in affection and as most men are bisexual by nature, there will be an increased move towards gay relationships. If a woman is going to be bossy and demanding, a man will simply ignore her. With the increase in female buying power and their lack of real consideration for the needs of a man, I think I will invest heavily in Hagen Das!

by David on Jan 14 2012 at 12:17 PM

I want to start by putting this into context. I'm Canadian, but I recently moved from New York. I'm a well dressed professional (Designer jeans, bespoke shirts/suits, cufflinks), I have a PhD from Yale (2009), I'm fairly good looking (5'10" and blond, so not the tall dark and handsome type), look young for my age, I'm in good shape, I have traveled all over the world, socially calibrated, and I am very generous and courteous to everyone regardless of age or sex. I have never had problems meeting women, and in any other city my dance card was always full with an abundance of choice. Before I left New York I was seeing an amazingly kind, friendly and beautiful and successful accountant who did her Masters Degree in New York and happened to be a part time model -- not to diminish her or her accomplishments in anyway, but girls like that are not uncommon. Vancouver is as bad as it gets, even worse than New Haven (The rest of the Ivy's have a saying: has a saying: "there is no tail at Yale").

In New York I woud spontaneously meet more girls in a week than I have in the last six months living in Vancouver. I find girls here to be just as unambitious and insipid as the author says the men are. But whereas women here complain that Vancouver men are passive and shy, the girls in Vancouver tend to be down right unapproachable and will give you a glare as if to say: "Did I give you permission to interact with me?" It doesn't take too many of these interactions before I decided to say forget it altogether and stick to long distance relationships. Fortunately I travel a lot, but I have completely given up on the social scene in Vancouver and now spend my weekends going for dinner with my Dad, grandparents, or cousins. I have lost all will and desire to socialize in this city. I have lived all over the world

This is a chicken and egg problem. Do women act like this simply defensive because they are not used to spontaneous interactions with strangers (The author mentioned a story where a woman thought a man was trying to steal her luggage when offering to help her -- how friendly of an interaction do you think the man received? Maybe that was even me). Or are men passive because they find that it is impossible to interact with women here, tire of rejection, and so they quickly give up and stop trying?

One theory I have is that it comes down to the weather. In the cold rainy months Vancouver enters a state of insular depression, and through habit that carries over into the summer months. Moreover, when summer does come around, people focus on meeting up with their friends, or going hiking, rather than meeting new people.

The social scene in Vancouver is also terrible. The city practically shuts down at 5:00 as everyone runs home. There is no dynamism or vitality. In New York there are always random mixers and events to go to. Book signings, wine tasting events, art gallery showings, staff parties, fashion shows, after parties, ethnic society socials, University mixers. And perhaps most importantly, there is always a lot of alcohol at these events. In Vancouver, I have been to a couple charity events but they are typically quite stuffy, they end early, and they are horribly pretentious.

Rejection is a far more powerful emotion than annoyance, and so it's really incumbent upon women to loosen up a bit and encourage interactions with strangers, because I promise that if women continue to be unapproachable, then the problem will never be solved. Women also need to know that it's okay to interact with a male without expectations. Just because I initiate an interaction with you, it doesn't necessarily mean I want to sleep with you. I talk to guys all the time, it doesn't mean I want to sleep with them. But even if I did, so what? Get over it. Are vancouver women really that prudish?

Girls, next time you go out try to put a smile on your face. Put down your phone, look around, and make a little eye contact. Us men will do the rest.

Rob Leclerc

P.S. A friend's friend wrote an article "Why do Vancouver Women Suck" and organized a Flashmob today at 5:30 at Robson Square. Maybe this is the first step into generating a healthy social scene in Vancouver.

by rdleclerc on Jan 12 2012 at 1:48 PM

On a related note...

Most popular questions asked by women in Vancouver when meeting a man for the first time or going on a first date:

1. What do you do?
2. Do you rent or own?

Actions men should take when being asked questions like these:

1. Feel free to answer this borish and typical question but know that you have definitely not met one of the so called "interesting and successful" women that Vancouver does indeed posses. Keep an eye on the closest exit as conversation will likely go downhill from here (no fault of your own!)

2. This is the question that should trigger an immediate exit from the conversation. No woman who you just meet or even meet a second time has any right to know anything about your financial situation contrary to popular belief.

Even if you are as successful as you could possibly be, it's simply too early in the relationship to divulge this kind of info men!

When the first two questions have to do with jobs and property ownership you are speaking to a chic who is on a money hunt first and foremost. This city has lots of them so beware!

There are tons of great women to date in Vancouver so politely excuse yourself and find someone more interesting to talk to!

by nolongersingleinVancouver on Jan 11 2012 at 3:42 PM


Amen! You only missed a point or two that I would have made and likely covered more than I would have had I taken the time to write in!

Articles like this always play up how great women are and then go on to talk about this "mythical lazy gamer guy" that is supposed to represent all men here.

Articles, like this one, do a great job of stereotyping men and portray every woman here as incredibly successful, having it all figured out and so on. In reality that's not the case.

There are tons of women who don't know what the hell they are doing with their lives, are clueless about dating, know next to nothing about what a man wants and needs and are financially destitute but that kind of talk doesn't get published because? Because women are the ones who buy and read these bloody magazines in the first place.

They also fail to tell stories like the ones I am involved and the ones my friends are involved in such as: Man meets and marries the woman next door, could it happen to you? Or successful HR professional meets a great man while on the job..and how you can too! This kind of thing doesn't get published- there's no controversy, no drama!

Those kinds of stories, which we all know and can tell, don't sit well with the single and bitter crowd, and the blogger / journalist / wannabe sex in the city girls because it tells them that others are getting and having what they cannot. Other Vancouver women are experiencing great relationships with local men because they understand that it takes two: you have to "attract" a great man by being a great woman in the first place. If all you are coming into contact with are lazy gamer types, take a look in the mirror honey!

Of course it's not popular to suggest to women today that they need to be SELF RESPONSIBLE. It's much easier to tell women what they want to hear which is to BE FASHIONABLE. It is fashionable for women to complain about men. It is fashionable to publish articles putting men down and claiming dominance for women, claiming success for women. Truth be told, despite what ever survey or statistic about secondary education you might flaunt, most women are forever, hopelessly lost when it comes to getting all their ducks in a row. But that is a dirty little secret that's not popular to talk about. Even the successful ones out there have lots of messed up areas of their lives.

So the story is and will continue to be "Why Vancouver Men Suck" instead of "Things Single Vancouver Women Can Improve About Themselves to Attract a Man". That's what's fashionable. That's what Carry Bradshaw would approve. That's what Vancouver women want to read.

End of story.

Except that isn't the end of the story because meanwhile in realityville, many of us are enjoying this city and its dating scene. Or like I am, we recently opted out of the dating scene and are happily married to a beautiful local woman who happens to have a good head on her shoulders. Frankly there's less of them around in this city than any of us would like to admit.

by nolongersingleinVancouver on Jan 11 2012 at 3:36 PM

I remember trying to date in Vancouver. I was a reasonably good looking and athletic guy. I didn't usually dress up to go out, but was often better attired than my friends and the places we frequented weren't populated with well dressed women. I was always with a group of guys, one gay the rest straight, that sometimes included a lesbian friend and a couple of girlfriends of other guys. We were always friendly toward those around us. I was one of the quiet ones, but good at conversation within my own social group. I was perpetually single.

In retrospect I have realized that my lack of self confidence was self evident. At the same time, the treatment I received was often barbaric. How hard is it to speak when a man approaches you? I'm serious. 99% of the time I was greeted by a turned head and stone cold silence. Tell me to buzz off and I'll respect that. Tell me you're not interested. Tell me I look immature. Tell me something. Just turn away and pretend you didn't even hear me? That's cold. There were long periods of time during which I was so fed up with women that I never approached anyone and none approached me.

During my 20's I did have 3 short term girlfriends who met me through sports or, in one case, online. Given that it was before home internet access even existed that was quite a feat. One was an older woman who approached me. The other two would tell you that I was aggressive in approaching them. Given that both were drop dead gorgeous, one even had a beauty pageant crown, you bet I was aggressive.

So I think the lesson here for guys is that you need to believe in yourself, go after what you want and somehow try not to get depressed when you're rejected a hundred times. The lesson for women is to stop treating men like an enemy and to go after what you want rather than sitting there hoping he will come to you.

I'm now happily married and, for the record, she approached me.

by B1402 on Jan 11 2012 at 2:50 PM

While I find this article interesting, I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I am a single woman in my late twenties...

1. Chances are if a man goes to help you with your bags and you look at him like he's a criminal, you are probably giving off some "Stand-offish" vibes in GENERAL, and maybe this is contributing to your inability to find good men.

2. If you are willing to overlook a guy because he's dressed too casually, you're probably very judgemental, and possibly missing out on some very interesting guys who value things that are more important than their physical appearance

3. These same women want to be treated as equals in the workforce, but they expect special treatment like opening the door, flowers, or guys who pick up the tab... while I agree it's always nice to make the other person feel "special", why does this have to be something that only men are supposed to do?

4. Playing on sports teams with men DOES NOT create a brother/sister rivalry thing for everyone. "We don't look at a guy and think how good he looks in his shorts" <- BULLSHIT. some of us (i would even say, MANY of us) actually DO think that...

5. Some women would find an invitation to do the Grind a sexy date. You practically live on a mountain, what kind of subculture are you expecting?

6. This article is representative of a small group of women. There are lots of us out there who are not put off by men being more casual, or inviting us on sport-related dates.

I am not sure if chivalry is dead, but maybe it is changing/evolving.
These women seem a bit judgemental and high maintenance, and make some of us ladies look bad!
THats my 2 cents.

by hellowestcoast on Jan 11 2012 at 12:53 PM

I can't really comment on grossly generalized editorial material designed to be inflammatory. But I can describe a very interesting personal experience I had just recently. Back in November, I grew a proper beard for the first time (every man should do this at least once in their life - it's a rite of passage). It was heaps of fun, and I got plenty of thumbs up from friends and family. What I was not prepared for, however, was the DRAMATIC change in how women to whom I was a stranger began reacting to me. They smiled more. There started to be very odd flirtatious encounters in grocery store check-out lines, restaurants, live-music nights, gallery events, etc. This was not a pre-planned social experiment, and nothing about my regular routine had changed. The only thing I was left with was "the beard". I can't really comment on the "why" - perhaps a beard is somehow disarming, and so women become less aloof. Is it possible that the overall "unkempt" look of the men of Vancouver is because many of them have discovered, either consciously or unconsciously, the same thing I did, which is that one way around the heavy defences of Vancouver women is to grow a beard? I can tell you that men don't "give up" when it comes to women. If you see a trend in behaviour or appearance among men in a city, there can only be one explanation - it's working for them for some reason. In every culture, so far as dating is concerned, women set the tone for what is acceptable and desirable. Why the hell do you think there were so many guys with barbed-wire tattoos a decade ago? Do you think that men collectively got together to decide to that this was a good idea? Hell no! The reason so many mid-thirties guys are now sporting ugly tattoos is because for a while, these defined masculinity for the women in our culture. Apparently, Vancouver men have got the message that being a little unkempt and sporting beards is the ultimate symbol of manliness, as well as perhaps conjuring up all kinds of warm feelings about positive male role-models.

by dgro on Jan 10 2012 at 12:24 PM

This article does make some good points, but let's be honest here: Vancouver is a weird place, with weird men. I have struck up conversations with the random guy who approached me and who seemed perfectly nice, only to have them say something crazy or lewd a second later. I have been followed home five times, once by a guy who pretended to masturbate while skateboarding and moaned disgustingly. Was I dressed provocatively, throwing out signals that begged them to harass me? Nope. I was wearing jeans and a coat, and happily minding my own business. Perhaps some women are snotty or rude, but some of us are just wondering what the hell these guys are up to, striking up an awkward conversation with us. Some of them sound mentally unbalanced and expect to women to be riveted, or to appreciate their efforts, which is a signal the guy is a bit off.

Finally, I absolutely agree with the first article regarding how men are terrible in Vancouver. I, too, was starting to wonder what was wrong with me when I couldn't get hit on recently. Then, I realized I'd moved into a hipster neighbourhood where everyone -- guys and girls alike -- were too busy looking down at me to be polite. And when I open the door to go through, an idiot man-child who is twice my size will bolt through with nary a "thank you", or mow me down on the sidewalk rather than giving me a little space to walk in the opposite direction. They call themselves men, but they act like petulant, self-entitled children who have tantrums when they don't get their way. It makes me want to hunt down their parents and smack them for raising guys with such poor manners. I sincerely hope I find a nice man who has recently moved here, or that I move to some city where there are more men of true character.

by pft1 on Jan 10 2012 at 3:48 AM

So, as a dating blogger, I figured it would be better to just write a post than a never-ending response (because I tend to ramble...I'm a rambler...ramble ramble ramble...word has lost all meaning) it is:

He Sucks, She Sucks, We All Suck Vancouver

by Something She Dated on Jan 11 2012 at 1:41 AM

I found this article and the responses to be fascinating, and wanted to put in my two cents and basically just show a little appreciation for the guys in the city - I know for a fact there are some great fellas here! I also hope this article helps to improve the dating scene, rather than make people focus on the negatives.

Here's a little excerpt from my blog post on the topic:

" would have been fun to join the girls in the article in their favourite pastime of 'dissing Vancouver men', but I’m afraid that I just can’t relate to them that much. Perhaps it’s because I’ve never successfully walked in six-inch heels, much less gone shopping and then tried to ride on a bus in them. Or perhaps it’s because, other than my first Vancouver-raised boyfriend...I’ve been lucky to be taken out on the town by some very generous and chivalrous gentleman (and gals as well, but that’s on a different standard). So thanks, local guys!"

(The rest of my post is here:

Thanks for reading and maybe this comment helps to provide a little balance from the female side :).

by lexilam on Jan 9 2012 at 10:41 PM

I lived in Vancouver from 2003-August 2011. I had very little fortunate in dating men in Vancouver. I found men in Vancouver inconsistent with their approach to dating - very hot and cold. We could be spending time together and having a great time for a few weeks - then suddenly, no contact from them, no returns to my texts or calls. For me, if a man does not contact me for 2 weeks it is clear that he is not interested. I move on. Repeatedly, I would have these same men suddenly appear 2-3 months later asking me out again as if no time had passed. Really?!?!

I understand that men think Vancouver women are unapproachable. Try this on, women in Vancouver seem unapproachable because they have been disappointed repeatedly by men. It is not that we are snobby, it is that we need men to truly step up and treat us with respect and do something special to catch our attention.

Listening to my guy friends talk last month about dating in Vancouver I have heard them say a variety of things.

A 34 year old man said, "she is not driven enough in her career" about a 32 year old woman. I asked him if he wants to have kids, he said yes. I told him he should be thinking about whether or not she will be a good mother, and make sure she gets a job with benefits and maternity leave.

A 36 year old man never married said, "the girl I am sleeping with". This guy elaborated with, there are 4 women to every man in Vancouver so he doesn't need to commit to a relationship because he can always find a woman to have sex with.

A 37 year old man explained that his friends like to just see if they can get the girl. So they pull the moves and say the right words to seduce her to just drop her once they know they succeeded. The explanation for this behaviour was that in their early 20's they were geeks and unable to get women so now they just want to have fun now that they are making money and have exciting life styles.

I am 34 years old, I want to experience sharing my life with someone, having children, being in love. I felt that this would not happen if I stayed in Vancouver. I am tired of these man-boys who are spoiled by the beautiful, successful, sporty, fun, stylish women and they are unable to choose just one.

I left Vancouver for Europe, within 3 weeks I met a wonderful German man who was respectful and was consistently making me feel beautiful, special and safe. I don't know if we will get married. I do know that he respects the dating process of getting to know someone. He does not stop talking to me when he is scared, instead he shares. When I get upset, he does not run away, instead he stays and discusses things until we come to a resolution. He does not check out other women when I am with him. He is not afraid to make plans incase something 'better' comes along. It is easy to get to know him because there is no drama, no hot and cold, no 'I don't know', no inconsistencies in his attention towards me.

I have told him some of my dating stories from Vancouver. He would say, "Why would men treat such a special woman that way?" I have no answer to this question.

by ULink on Jan 9 2012 at 8:38 PM

Mid 20's, vancouver guy born and raised. I have travelled all over the world and Vancouver girls are the most pretentious I have seen to date.

by MrRight on Jan 9 2012 at 7:00 PM

Hey guys and gals,

Very interesting article and comments, IMHO. I just wanted to share a little excerpt from my blog post (which is intended more for humour than for any real substantial value), but the short of it is that I have quite a positive view of men in this city despite some bad experiences. Here goes:

" would have been fun to join the girls in the article in their favourite pastime of “dissing Vancouver men,” but I’m afraid that I just can’t relate to them that much. Perhaps it’s because I’ve never successfully walked in six-inch heels, much less gone shopping and then tried to ride on a bus in them. Or perhaps it’s because, other than my first Vancouver-raised boyfriend from a few years ago who wore trackpants everywhere, conveniently had to “use the men’s room” when it was time for the cheque to come, and did literally NOTHING for my birthday even though we had known each other for over half a year and been in a relationship for several months (I swear I’m not bitter…), I’ve been lucky to be taken out on the town by some very generous and chivalrous gentleman...So thanks, local guys!..."

The rest of my blog is here:

Thanks for your time and looking forward to reading more responses here. Cheers!

by lexilam on Jan 9 2012 at 6:00 PM

Yes, they do suck. I'm single, tall (but not so tall it's weird), educated, have a great job and am attractive. I'm fit, and for someone just under 50 I have to say I'm not too bad (I don't even have cellulite!). Why am I bothering to explain my physical appearance? Because i spent 12 months on that horrid website Plenty of Fish. I had one date, and that was with a guy who thought I was someone else (isn't it great you're into scuba diving! Um, no, I'm not). In my age group men are looking for women 10 years younger, and that is after they've shaved 5 years off their real age. A review of the women I was competing with indicated i'm not hungry enough. My boobs were inside my blouse and I hadn't photoshopped the heck out of my face and neck. Even outside in the real world men are curiously absent. Their faces buried in their smartphones on transit and in coffee shops. Head up the hills for snowshoeing and it's odd but most of the others out on the trail are women. Ditto at my running club. Go skiing and the men are so into guffawing with their chums they are oblivious to the smiling woman standing nearby. I'm not complaining, but it would be nice to have a gentleman make eye contact once in a while. It happens elsewhere in the world, but for some reason not here in Vancouver.

by BCgal on Jan 9 2012 at 4:27 PM

Truly a good informative article for Men and Women.
Coming from another recently imported Vancouver single, this city does appear to be in a Burmuda Triangle of dating. Lots of stuff is getting lost! With my first few glances into this dating world I can already see right where Katherine is coming from.
I moved here recently from Edmonton, an oil-city filled with many gorgeous women and plenty of men who like to puff out their chests and be over aggressive. Each city has its anomalies and I thought I was one in Edmonton. Thought I was super laid back and never approved of the idea of 'hunting' for my dates as most guys do in e-town. Just wanted to find an intelligent talented women, who would chase me as much as I her. Well maybe I'm passive compared to your oil-rigger who's been surrounded by nothing but men for his three weeks in camp and now has a seven day pass, but I'm not so laid back compared to Joe here who apparently does want to come off as aloof and waits for the women to make all the moves. Suddenly here I actually feel over aggressive. Dont worry I have tack, I'm not pushy or trying to be aggressive, but for all I know I may come off that way a bit because it is quite the contrast.
Well travelled, I love new places. I've always been someone who likes to sit on a patio and just relax taking in the people walking by, observing styles, attitudes and trends, getting the feel for the city I'm in... One of the best places in the world to do this by the way is Barecelona with a pitcher of Sangria de Cava, ah ya!... but observing here in Van, I've noticed one specific thing; singles dont mingle. Unless with a group men and women don't seem to really interact. No meet cutes, no guys making moves, which has made things quite easy for me I must say. Everyone just seems to be into what they are doing. Very self-aware which is great, but not socially aware.
For outsiders, Vancouver is considered very 'clicky', and in some cases they may not be that off. Perhaps its the west coast attitude mixed with the big city awareness. By that I mean the idea of accepting everyone, but being cautious of everyone. Here if not introduced instead of coming off as confident, people can jump to see someone as creepy before listening to anything they're saying. So the aloof guy in the corner may sometimes have the right idea. If your surrounded by confident women and can be totally laid back maybe they'll come to you. Nah, been there, done that, have the souvenir photos.
Dating should be fun and unexpected. If you only want your guy to be laid back while we watch a movie when the rain is coming down hard, dont worry ladies I'm here, and even though I've seen the trend I've also noticed I'm not alone.
As for chivalry I dont think its dead, but its been beat down hard. Don't blame Vancouver, I notice it all over. And with Chivalry it comes down mainly to one thing, the parents. Its fathers who are supposed to teach us to open those doors, give up our seats, carry the groceries, walk closest to the street, and buy the lady a drink if for no other reason than you appreciate her beauty and noticed she didn't have one. Growing up in a generation where divorce has suddenly not only become common but accepted, perhaps this has brought a lot of people to be jaded so chivalry is dissipating faster than ever. It's hard to be chivalrous when they women who could use your seat looks like your ex that took your house. Even just the fact of how many break-ups people go through before settling down. Remember when being married at 18 was not considered crazy? Dont worry most people cant either... luckily I had a grandfather who taught me these rules of chivalry and taught me one more important one. Don't be Jaded!! I look forward to teaching these to my son when I have one, along with respecting your elders and care for your fellow man.
So remember ladies; If you smashed his flat screen before moving out, karma might not give you that seat. If your competitive, it doesn't mean you have to compete with the guy next to you and end up just friends, compete with yourself. If you turned down a drink from the 'creepy' guy you never even really talked to, hey, he might have been the yoga instructor with the business goals and chivalry tools you always wanted. And lastly, If you're so busy looking for mr right every day on every corner and every dating site, you'll never take time to enjoy your alone time and remember that only you can make yourself happy, not a man (and vice versa guys). This way when we show up we wont have to make you happy, we'll have the honor of sharing in the happiness together,
Dallas... aka the new guy in town who WILL introduce himself!

by TakeCharge on Jan 9 2012 at 2:30 PM

Interesting article with many truths. I think overall Vancouver men are far more active than the metro types from Toronto or NYC. What's important to Vancouver men in many cases is travel and their many outdoor sporting pursuits. They work to live, not live to work. They can see dating as endless dinners, movies and eventually domestic handcuffs that slowly put a damper on all the active things they love to do. Fashionista career women like the three in the article have very different life goals and desires than your average Vancouver guy. Vancouver active men who date them feel like the things that are important to them are berated as immature as the article suggests, so they retreat into those activities to keep themselves happy and look for those uber-active cool women who can share in the things that they feel are important. But we'll still date the fashionistas cause, hey, they look great. But it rarely works out with them in the end cause it's like selling out your dreams for hers. The fashionistas champion the metro big city type from NYC, London and Toronto who have their goals. They should just move there so they have more choice of what they want. We're here cause our activities we love are here, and there's more cool active girls here too.

by autobiographica on Jan 9 2012 at 12:55 PM

All I will say is I have way more fun when I go home to Alberta!!! LOL When I first moved here I thought there might be something wrong with me as I found not just the men, but the people in general unfriendly! Prairie people love to chat, party and will chat with just about anyone! I once chatted a fellow up at a bar and the first thing he said was I must be from out of town! LOL Ya'll only live once, might as well have fun doin it.

by Horsegal on Jan 8 2012 at 9:20 PM

So, a friend posted this article on facebook, and asked for guys to step up and defend our gender. After reading, I don't think that's even worth doing -- the representations here are so unbelievably biased and so obviously atypical that it would be a waste of my time to refute them. So, I'm not going to defend men; we have nothing to be ashamed of. Instead, I'm going to point out some of the flaws in the way of thinking that brought rise to this article.

The article characterizes women as beautiful go-getters, professional, well-dressed, charismatic, and in all other ways wonderful. Guys are described as unmotivated, dope-smoking delinquents that never do laundry and are still living with their parents at 60 years old. A great start, to be sure. This outright incorrect caricature of the genders is what draws attention away from the completely unreasonable expectations of the women described here.

These women are lamenting a lack of courtesy. While arguing that women feel like they have to take care of their men financially and emotionally (the nurse and the purse), they instead expect the exact opposite. Men are supposed to do everything. Not only on an actual date, where they have to pick the location, pick up their lady, choose the wine, cover the bill, etc, but as complete strangers as well. Men have to give up their seats on the bus to women who don't seem to understand the concept, and are wearing six-inch heels. Men are supposed to buy a round of drinks for a table of strangers as a way of "flirting". On top of this, men also have to do the little things: open doors, wear a fancy coat just so we can put it over a puddle (because apparently women have their head so much in the clouds they can't seem to look where they're going). This takes us to the ridiculous notions of chivalry.

Oh no, chivalry is dead! A code of honor that only involved noble-born soldiers (Knights), that not only included things like being nice to women, but also duels to the death. If it were to exist in modern terms, it would only apply to CEOs, and thus wouldn't be terribly helpful to you. As far as the concept of "being nice" goes, that ISN'T dead. However, one has to understand this radical new idea called "equality".

My question to you: are women pretty little objects for men to own? Or are they real people, worth getting to know and socializing with? Because they can't be both, and that is exactly what this article wants. Women are supposed to be strong, independent, and engaging, while at the same time men are supposed to fall over themselves to take care of their every little need. Opening a door for someone may be nice, but it implies that the person is too weak or incompetent to do it themselves. Making it a rule is basically saying that women need men to such a strong degree that they couldn't open a door without them. Now, that said, I have many female friends, and I often open doors for them. But, you know what? They open doors for me too. I treat my dates to dinner, but they also treat me sometimes. We do things for each other, because we like each other and respect each other as equals. It isn't this one-sided gold-digger's paradise longed for in the article.

Ultimately, the values implied by the article are atrocious. Women must have a boyfriend who does everything for them, while their entire responsibility is to look pretty; BUT! This princess has to be respected as a well-rounded person as well. Apparently, valid solutions are: a) stop caring, b) give up, c) move elsewhere.

I'm not saying that women are bad, or undeserving, or to blame, or anything like that at all. Vancouver is full of all types of interesting people, and many of the women are amazing. However, the women represented in this article are reprehensible, and I would be ashamed to know them. If your expectations in men echo the things said in this article, take a close look at yourself; you may be setting yourself up for disappointment.

by m.leo on Jan 8 2012 at 7:05 PM

Interesting article, I haven't been in "the game" for a long time, but i have been around enough to know that this is a complex issue. You surely can't blame the men any more than you can blame the women. There are a million reasons why men seem to have given up, but I'll share one anecdote that is a classic example of what one of the issues is.

Years ago I was on a date and took a girl to restaurant, it was a little pricey (I was an art student so MacDonalds was pricey at the time), but we had agreed to split the bill before hand so I knew that I wouldn't be screwed for food for a week. Since I knew we were going dutch, I was bound and determined to show this woman that I could be a gentleman in every way even if i was too broke to pay for her meal and drinks. I walked to her house (from Main to Granville) so that I could save money on bus fare and pay for a cab for us from her place to the restaurant. When the cab came I walked and held the door for her so she could get in. She walked around into the street on the other side of the cab assuming that I was just going to jump in. When we got to the restaurant I jumped out to get her door because, she had foiled me on the getting into the cab I did it as soon as we pulled up because I felt like an idiot for not making it clear what I was trying to do when we got into the cab. Of course when I opened the door for her she was busy paying the cab driver! So now not only was I not paying for the cab but I also appeared to be impatiently pushing her to hurry up and pay. As you can imagine the date was just getting started and already she was feeling annoyed. Once we go into the restaurant things just got worse. When we were seated I moved quickly to pull out her chair for her, she glared at me and sat in the chair on the other side of the table because she thought I was rudely snatching the chair because I wanted to sit there! Needless to say the whole affair was a disaster and what probably would have been a reasonably good date (we had talked many times before and had good chemistry) turned into an runaway train wreak as my every attempt at chivalry was misunderstood, or worse, taken as a belittling gesture.

My point is that while it may be true that men in this city have forgotten (or perhaps were never taught in the first place) how to treat a woman on a date, it seems, from my experience, that woman also don't know how to react if a man does the courteous thing. A young Brazilian man said it to me best once, he said, "You know, I've been all over the world and every where I've been, when you say something nice to girl, the call it a compliment, here, they call it harassment."

by twowaystreet on Jan 7 2012 at 5:07 PM

Chivalry is an antiquated joke.

The beta males who still believe in that are in for a wake up call when his empowered partner takes his condo or house after a 2 year marriage. Or when the wife asks for an open relationship.

Chivalry is only achievable when the wife submits to the man's authority. Think that will happen in Vancouver?

by Sicklove on Jan 7 2012 at 12:22 PM

I've only read the first page, but I'm sure for every negative characteristic mentioned about men, it could easily be attributed to women in Vancouver also...
There are great people here both men and women, and the inverse is also true, inevitably there are bad men and women too.

The first page focuses a lot on the way Vancouver men dress and their laid back casual attitude. Recently, Vancouver was named the third worst dressed city in the world, many big media outlets picked up on that story. Biggest reason for that honour was the way women dressed, namely the mainstream acceptance of yoga pants in various social situations, even to the workplace...Dunno how this broad can criticize men's fashion here when the women of Vancouver aren't as fashionable as their counterparts worldwide.

A quick online search by anyone and you'll find that The lady author (Katherine Ashenburg) of this article is also a speaker at the women's studies dept at UWO, so I'm not surprised at the anti-male (or pro-female?) tone of this piece.

A Habitual guest speaker for a lecture series on women's studies at UWO...hmm
I do not see her doing any other speaking engagements on any other subjects either...

It's not compelling evidence of her beliefs (heck even an atheist can be invited to speak at a religious university/house of worship), but that, coupled with the way the article is slanted, her bio, her books.. there is a strong correlation that she may be a pro-woman/anti-male advocate...gotta love articles like this that spark the fire in everyone...I wish I could read the whole things and get really angry and start spouting really impolite things...

by Jaime Colouson on Jan 7 2012 at 6:47 AM

I miss the old days when women would do all our cooking, spend all day maintaining impeccable looks so that at the end of the day us men could look forward to unconditionally sleeping with them and not expect to seriously reciprocate anything back in return.

I bet many women would find what I wrote above as offensive, and good on them. But what I wrote above is similar to how a man reads what a women truly desires in a man as an unfair expectation of what we're expected to meet.

Women these days lament that men are not as fit as Brad Pitt and fail to maintain impeccable style, while also being too metrosexual as to not properly be chivlarous/manly, while also being too masculine as to be unable to connect with emotionally. On top of that, the ideal man must be extremely successful/wealthy as to improve the living standards of the women he meets. Consider how much in opposition many of these ideals are with one another.

Ladies, take a step back and realize how your image of a man is just as unrealistic as us man have of what we consider to be the "ideal women." Successful relationships are built on compromise and realization that what we want is not necessarily realistic.

by KDH on Jan 7 2012 at 2:22 AM

I agree, this was a very well written article. I think you nailed it with the explanation of "the gender bait-and-switch." Personally, as a modern female this is something I struggle with because although I expect equality I also still want the chivalry. As you rightly mentioned, the millenials have no role models to learn "this balancing act" yet I find myself comparing the ways of the younger generation with that of the old. My father still walks on the outside of me closest to the curb, he drops my mother and I off at the entrance of the restaurant and goes alone to park the car. He insists on carrying my luggage or the groceries although I am very capable of both and always lets me go first when entering a room. Chivalry should be about respecting a woman and why can't I have it both ways? As a woman I may not open your car door but I will lean over and unlock it for you. I will offer to pick up the cheque and on numerous occasions insist on paying just so you do not classify me as a gold digger. Finally, while I do like it when you hold the elevator or walk me to the car, I hope you realize that I too am being chivalrous when I go shopping and pick up your favorite beer without you asking or surprise you with a home cooked dinner. It's really a two way street.

by areyoutherevodka_itsmechelsea on Jan 7 2012 at 12:54 AM

As a Vancouver woman I have to agree with both Ms. Ashenburg and FedUpVancouverGuy. It's so much harder to meet people in Vancouver than any other city. Everytime I go on vacation I am amazed how easy it actually is to go up to a random stranger and make conversation but for some reason once I'm home and with my group of girls, a new attitude is adopted whether conciously or not.

Vancouver woman, myself included, are sucked into this snobbery and unrealistic expectations of men. Trying to step outside of this bubble is difficult but I do always try to remind myself of what's real. I can totally understand why guys think it's hard to approach us. Of course, we're all in our Chanel bags and Loubutins, we expect bottle service and we just look stuck up. Sometimes I look at my group of girls and I want to laugh at what we've become when we get together.

Having said that, I own my own place, small as it is, didn't get help from my parents and yes, I do have clothes from H&M and Forever21 but I will occationally splurge on a bag or shoes that's more than a mortgage payment. I've recently ended a 2 year relationship and find that most guys that approach me are married and make no effort of hiding it. What's up with that?

As with the guys, I'm sure there's as many awesome guys out there as there all the passive, non motivated guys. As much as of an independent woman I am, chivalry never goes unnoticed. It's very much appreciated when someone holds the door for you, offers up a seat or just makes the extra effort to dress up nicely for you.

I don't know what my point is really but both opinions of Ms, Ashenburg and FEDUPVANCOUVERGUY rang true for me so I guess both gender have some things to work on?

by jp84 on Jan 7 2012 at 12:47 AM

After reading this I was a little miffed. Most men are intimidated by women in general. And the ones who are not are not really worth keeping. They have a lot of experience and that should tell you something. Most of the views shared here are from successful women. Who are looking for an equally successful guy or are   women that I would venture to say don't know how to be taken care of by men, and what these women really want is another women. 

There was a comment about guys hiding in the garage or going fishing. It's these times that make us men, it's these times that recharge our batteries to face another week. And it's these things that women don't appreciate. The lines are blurred, women used to let men be men. To head to the hills for some time away. To go fishing with there friends while the ladies socialized with each other. Now we are expected to where metro sexual clothes, drink girly drinks and talk about celebrities.  In the big city it's hard for a guy to get some quality man time on a daily basis and for many of us that is a hard burden to bare. This is something I don't really expect women to get but I hope they can respect it.  Because as wise man once said women need love, men need respect. 

A second point is this many men are currently unemployed, facing cut backs or just significantly lower wages. It used to be that the girls stayed at home while the men went to work. I am not criticizing women and there right to work, but for a lot of guys it is hard when they feel like they can't provide. There are a lot of girls complaining about men but maybe guys don't feel like they can afford to take a girl out, or maybe men feel insecure financially and don't think that right now is a good time to bring more commitments into there lives.  

For instance in 2007 a friend of mine was making upwards of 80k a year in construction, now he has been forced to close his business and work for less then 50k. Not a winning story for a first date. 

Men are currently under attack. The things we used to turn to are disappearing, it's to expensive to go away for a weekend, our job security is gone, our financial stability is teetering, or success stories are plummeting and our self confidence is being battered. 

In this article it talked about how 3 degrees are being earned by women for every 2 earned by men.  Well most of those guys where doing jobs like construction, oil, forestry, and the likes and those are a lot of the areas that have been hit hardest, not to mention that now we have significantly more women to compete against in the corporate world. An unfortunate sercumstace that pits men against women which makes it even harder to date. Because now you are dating a rival not just a nice girl. 

I would venture to say it is not rocket science as to why a "good" man is getting harder to find.  I think what really needs to happen is for people to take a good look at our world from a mans perspective rather then to add to the multitudes negativity that is floating around towards men. 

And I would like to agree with most of the comments posted here. I have done a fare bit of traveling and I would venture to say B.C girls are some of the best looking girls in the world and this view is shared. But they are also some of the most stuck up unapproachable women around. That view is also shared. 

by danmbyl on Jan 6 2012 at 9:44 PM

I've been living here in Vancouver for the last two years. I'm not in the dating market so no idea how this goes here in Vancouver.
Besides the typical issues / roles of males and females and how they could be different here there are some basic things affecting for bad this particular problem.

"Chivalry died years ago, and it's buried six feet under" that's probably right, till the point that women do not recognize it anymore when a man behaves like a real gentleman. Example: I hold doors for anybody, with special attention to women, no matter how they dress gorgeous or if they wear those horrible combo "yoga pants+UGG boots". Not a single 'thanks', they open the other door (it there are two in the same gate) or they look at you as if you were a perv. You have no idea if I'm a perv or not but at least a well educated, nice and friendly one.

The more I talk to anybody about it the more clear is to me that something wrong happens with the communication, or lack of it, between people in Vancouver. I started to think all Canada was like that but it seems it is a pretty local thing.

Everybody pays more attention to smartphones than real people. Answering calls and emails? No-no. Say Hi to people you meet every day in the same elevator? Hell no!
Seems Canada is pretty fond on social media but I can tell you Vancouver does not grade in simple, traditional and analogical social at all.

It the base is not working how do you expect more complex relationships to run smoothly? I'm an affable person, I like to socialize but I can't get Canadian friends, nobody calls you for a beer during the weekend, no matter how many tines you invited them for a diner or lunch.

No idea what are the reasons but for a latin-mediterranean person like it is the hardest cultural shock I have to face here.

(Don't get me wrong, I love this city)

by Ani Lopez on Jan 6 2012 at 9:26 PM

As a guy, I can relate to some of the frustrations noted here. I have noticed a lot of boyish behavior in other guys. My roommate smokes excessive amounts of weed and his social life is on the PlayStation Network. He is in his mid-twenties and I wonder what the hell happened to him?

However common guys like him are in Vancouver, so are guys like me who don't smoke weed, moved out when they where 18, and have a career. Just as not all races are the same, neither can you lump together all men as hopeless dates like this article does. Many of us do random acts of chivalry every week.

I take Skytrain to work, and I offer my seat to women who seem to need it. Sometimes they are grateful, sometimes I get the crazy "how dare you offer me your seat-do-you-think-I'm-less-than-you eyes". But being a man is all about not worrying about rejection. Life is way more fun and adventurous that way.

by ABfield on Jan 6 2012 at 9:04 PM

FEDUPVANCOUVERGUY: Wow. Your words are so biting and true--especially in regards to the real biography of the girls written about in this piece.

As someone from a rural area, this whole article screams of cosmopolitan excess. Go anywhere that is not a big city and try saying that the men in Vancouver have no fashion sense.

On an unrelated point: The point about BC's archaic alcohol laws is well taken. I too felt similarly in a holiday paradise when I got to experience the amazing phenomenon that is 2 for 1 happy hour.

- A fellow man

by KDH on Jan 6 2012 at 8:22 PM

FedupVancouverGuy should have written this article - I just about died laughing. Miss Ashenburg should take note of his non-pretentious and infinitely more amusing piece.


by vancityaznguy on Jan 6 2012 at 8:05 PM

"She says she gets on the bus in six-inch heels, laden with packages, and no man offers her his seat. "
ROFL. I wouldn't get up for her either. if she can shop in those heels she can stand on the bus.
I am more offended about people not getting up to let you out (from the window seat) and let old, disabled or people with children have a seat.
I agree, men in Vancouver suck but Vancouver isn't a great city anyway.

by guest100 on Jan 6 2012 at 7:44 PM

FedupVancouverGuy you are BANG-ON. Thank you for taking time to put together a well-crafted response on behalf of all the other decent, available, and overlooked guys out there. I live in Kits and all I see is women staring at the ground and plugged into their iPods. Totally unapproachable and uninterested.
Again, thanks.

by DrStrangelove on Jan 6 2012 at 7:37 PM


Dude, plenty of women don't want relationships in the traditional sense, and will gladly have sex as long as there is mutual respect. It's something you have to adapt to, as dating in Vancouver is not based on traditional romance. Girls want to have fun and get laid as much as guys do, in fact, maybe more. They're the alpha females of Vancouver and they want the alpha males, not the passive, sad 9-5 beta drones.

by Sicklove on Jan 6 2012 at 5:56 PM

I'm a single 30 yr old professional. I've owned my own place since I was 24. I come from a blue collar family, who raised me with respect and manors. I hold doors open all the time. I plan the date. I pay for the date. I'm complimentary. I'm the "good" guy you hear women complaining there is none of. It's really tough to date in this city.

There are a lot of beautiful women in Vancouver, but the problem is they (not ALL) are entirely cliquey, unapproachable, superficial, social ladder climbers. Approach a woman and if she doesn't turn her back on you, her friends will basically tell you to get lost. Buy a girl a drink, she think your a chump and will want another and a round for her friends or she's on to the next guy.

It seems the only guys who get any attention are rich satellite kids (who get used for their family's money) or meat head wannabe drug dealers (who also get used for their money) Which leads me to believe their is a large amount of superficial gold diggers out there.

The unreported issue is the large amount of women in this city that whore themselves out on the side. They'll advertise "Not a pro. Part time only." as if that doesn't still make them a hoe. Money and superficial things play a large role. Everybody wants to keep up with the Jones. Women want to live the movie star lifestyle because that's what they see around them. If they can't find a sugar daddy; a lot of them turn to whoring. That jades them even further, and they're not interested in true love anymore. It's wholly financial at that point.

I love travelling because women in different cities and countries are noticeably more friendly and open. They are comfortable with being feminine and being the woman. They appreciate the little things.

Women can't have it both ways. On one hand women and media popularized metro-sexual men as the more attractive man. Then on the other hand woman say they want the assertive man's man. Well you can't have an assertive guy in a salmon(pink) shirt. Just sayin'

by yvrgoodtimes on Jan 6 2012 at 4:27 PM

I'm at a loss as to where I should begin with this, but I'll try a bit of an intro first. I'm a mid-late-twenties guy, great job, sense of humour, polite, athletic, the usual mix of typically Canadian values. Ambitious, fun-loving, and oh yes, absolutely fed up with Vancouver women. I think going through this article chronologically might be easiest, because there's so much that's so blatantly wrong and it does an excellent job of illustrating the problems men face in dealing with Vancouver women, though largely by accident.

First, Natalie, Elise, and Tracey need a reality check. I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but life isn't an episode of Sex in The City, despite your best efforts. Realistically, few in their mid-20s have their lives so figured out. What Tracey hasn't told you is that her electric-blue dress was bought at either H&M or Le Chateau, because she couldn't afford anything better due to the sky-high rent she's paying for the Yaletown condo she couldn't afford to buy on her entry-level marketing coordinator salary. Her bright blonde hair is actually brown, and while she's the one buying at Commune tonight, it's all going on her Visa which is close to being maxed out, as she's living far above her means. Elise's job in "business development" is really just a low-level sales position, so she's slightly better off in that she can at least write off part of her clothing as an expense. As for Natalie, she may be at grad school in Ontario, but there's a very good chance mommy and daddy are footing that bill, along with her tab for the night's drinks. They may sit around and complain about Vancouver men, but they're part of the problem and unfortunately common in this city. Vacuous women who'll do nothing but talk about their designer shoes and gossip about who's sleeping with who, all while living a lifestyle they can't actually afford and expecting the guys they see around them to do the same. Do they go out and hike, bike, and kayak? Sure, but only enough to be able to tell their friends they do it.

Tracey being tired of spending the night in "chic" Whistler bars with guys who are dressed in baggy jeans and hoodies is laughable. Let's overlook the fact that there's really no such thing as a "chic" bar in Whistler and instead focus on the fact that it's a ski town. It's populated by, you guessed it, skiers and snowboarders who wear baggy jeans and hoodies and tourists. Sure, there's the odd W/B exec kicking around, and you can recognize him by the tell-tale signs: slightly more fitted jeans, a button-up shirt, and his very happy, very nice, athletic, intelligent wife with a great job who's out walking the dog while he takes care of the baby. He's not interested in you, and neither are any other guys there because you're the annoying, over-dressed girl with a sense of entitlement so big it doesn't quite fit into the bar. Tracey's issues with Whistler bars are easily solved by throwing on a pair of jeans and checking her attitude along with her coat. Sadly for her, she's too self-absorbed to realize this.

No one getting up to give her a seat on the bus when she's in 6 inch heels and "laden with packages"? Of course not. The guys on the bus have already given up their seats to the seniors with canes and mothers with strollers. You chose the 6 inch heels, live with them. Side note: This is something you'd only ever see or hear about in Vancouver. Go to New York, LA, Montreal, Toronto, or any other major city and while you might see women in 6 inch heels, they'll all be sensible about them and take cabs, drive, not carry a ton of packages with them, and maybe even wear flats until they get to where they're going. Besides, why are you wearing 6 inch heels? Are you so insecure with your height that you feel they're necessary? I'd usually just dismiss someone wearing 6 inch heels in this city with a casual "meh, she's probably a stripper," but in this case that'd be insulting to strippers everywhere, who are either too sensible to wear their stage shoes around town or make enough money to afford a car that they can drive to work while wearing their 6 inch heels. No, chivalry hasn't died, it just doesn't apply to your case of wearing ridiculous shoes while carrying a ton of, let's be honest, what are probably magenta shopping bags onto a crowded bus.

Complaining about Vancouver's sartorial standards is of course what comes next. No, this isn't New York, and no, I'm not wearing a suit daily. I don't need to. It's not that I can't, it's not that I don't have a half dozen suits ready to go in my closet, it's that I don't need to. When I do, I clean up rather well, thank you. If you're after guys in suits, move to New York or London, where suits are the standard uniform. This isn't that city, and while it might be a bit sloppy, the fact that we aren't required to wear suits does make the place more casual, which is nice. Besides, the jeans, button-up shirt with the sleeves casually pushed up, casual shoes, and the Arc'teryx jacket that keeps me try in the rain we get here cost me about what a decent suit would have cost me at Harry's. Looking this "bad" isn't cheap.

Yes, it may be easier to go out, meet people, flirt, and enjoy good nightlife in other parts of the country. Toronto's great for it, as is Montreal. I know, I've been in both cities extensively. It's also a lot easier to strike up conversation at places like Canadian Tire, while you're "buying windshield wipers," but my experience tells me that most Vancouver women don't know what windshield wipers are, would have no idea how to buy or install them, and have never stepped foot in a Canadian Tire. Besides, your 6 inch heels wouldn't work too well in 6 inches of snow and -30 temps. Do I prefer the nightlife in other parts of the country? Yes, and with good reason. That said, I'm also on vacation when I'm there, so I'm more likely to be open, having a good time, and generally just meeting people. A common phenomenon with people who are somewhere other than where they live.

"No one who's ambitious comes to Vancouver," because there are no head offices isn't quite true either. While it's definitely true that a promotion to a regional office in Vancouver is generally either considered a "thank you" to a long time executive or a way of getting rid of an under-performing employee, there are just as many regional-office employees who move to Vancouver to get away from having to work 80 hour work weeks and deal with idiotic office politics, all in the name of work-life balance. It might put a cap on your upwards potential, but when you can be out of the office by 3:30 pm and on a ski hill or in the yoga studio by 4, you don't really care too much. If these women cared to, they could come appreciate that freedom as well. If they don't, well, their loss I suppose.

Of course, there are actually a number of head offices in Vancouver, filled with ambitious guys. Video game producers, a major apparel company that you may have heard of named Lululemon, numerous resource-based companies where jeans are considered "semi-formal" wear because a lot of their time is spent in the field, etc. Then there's all the guys working at the head offices of much smaller financial companies that are into things like "wealth management for high net worth individuals" and all the guys working at head offices of companies involved in skiing, snowboarding, and other such sports. They're all ambitious, you just haven't bothered talking to any of them because they're reasonably casual in both appearance and demeanor. You may judge based on clothing but that's a very, very bad idea in this city. The guys dressed in jeans and scuffed shoes sitting at the longbar at Joeys at 2 pm on a Tuesday might be losers, but there's just as good a chance that they're mining-industry guys discussing yet another deal to sell their find or project to a bigger firm for big, big money. Welcome to Vancouver. It's still a humble place in many ways, and we're all the better for it. So no, we don't have head offices of huge banks and hedge funds out here, but again, if that's the kind of guy you're after, feel free to relocate to somewhere they are. Just know that if you do, you'll be competing with women who are more intelligent, more polite, and more interesting than you are along with having much better jobs, so you'll have next to no chance.

I wish the sense of entitlement and snobbiness that the women mentioned in the article are afflicted with wasn't as common as it is in Vancouver, but that's the reality of dating here. I've never lived in any city where such a large part of the female population is just so incredibly un-dateable, for lack of a better term. It's their attitude towards men, it's their lifestyles, it's their beliefs, it's how fake they end up being, it's how utterly incapable of interesting conversation they are, it's their tendency to complain about us at every turn, it's the huge amount of gold-digging that goes on here, it's the insidious way in which their families tend to get involved in making sure they date the "right" guys, it's their complete lack of ideals that are realistic for the city they live in, it's their completely overblown sense of how great they are, it's everything. Yes, they're good looking and fill out their Lululemon pants quite well, but that's not enough for me to bother anymore. Vancouver men are pretty good at keeping quiet about all of this, but I'm sick of hearing the same stuff spewed day-in and day-out by women in this city and tired of reading it in print. Enough's enough ladies, take a good look at yourselves when you're in front of the mirror every morning and repeat the following mantra "I'm not in New York and guys here are just as good as anywhere else."

Now If you'll excuse me, I'm out to go skiing, mountain biking, hiking, or grab an espresso.

by FedupVancouverGuy on Jan 6 2012 at 4:17 PM

Oh come on Vancouver magazine. The Canucks-Bruins rematch is tomorrow, Vancouver male self-esteem is in a precarious enough position without you trying to get a few kicks in too.

Seriously though, PEOPLE in Vancouver are insular, we're a polite but distant city. No need to play the battle-of-the-sexes blame game just to drive traffic here. Although I'm sure it worked.

by manwhodressesandconverseswell on Jan 6 2012 at 3:26 PM

I think Vancouver women need to let their guard down a little. It goes both ways. I've seen many men try to approach women here at local clubs and pubs and women don't even have the decency to turn down men politely. They just give a disgusted expression and walk away.

A friend of mine from Calgary visited vancouver a few months ago and I showed him around and he was shocked at how women have such "attitude". An example, we we're outside of Republic NightClub on a sunday night and he approached a girl who was smoking and he asked politely for a light and the woman responded "i'm sorry, do I know you?" in what sense of being nice does that fall under?

I have worked at the club as a promoter for many years and it just seems like women think "they are all that, AND THEN SOME" and guys do try, but we do have our limits as well. The vancouver men are just getting tired and loosing hope on vancouver women who are stuck up and ends up ruining it for the nice chivalrous vancouver men.

by ramir on Jan 6 2012 at 3:21 PM

I am a Blond, attractive Canadian man. I work 1/2 the year overseas, so I like to take advantage of my frequent but short visits to Vancouver. I find women here do tend to act a bit jaded or uninterested in "outside the circle" interactions. It's a challenge and I like challenges. Men have to pick up their shoes and look at it as such. You can't win every challenge but the more you try the more you learn and the better you get. Maybe we all need to learn how to respect other people's culture more, this city is very diverse, I find a lot of ethnic girls that would prefer not to interact with other raced males, only feel so due to the bad experiences had with over aggressive and insensitive behaviour from males.
In conclusion I believe that Vancouver has some of the most beautiful women from around the world in so many variety of cultures. Take time to learn how to approach women, watch or ask men that have charisma for some pointers. Learn how to present yourself and keep your conversation humorous, intelligent and respectful. The only way you will learn to approaching people is to force yourself to do it all the time, treat every opportunity as a lesson in interactions. You can start with as simple a introduction as "Hello, I am out meeting new people tonight. What brings you here?" I Think the Vancouver dating scene is blossoming with opportunity.

by dtp on Jan 6 2012 at 1:54 PM

I'm one of the (few) well-dressed men who approaches women in Vancouver. Having lived in several other cities in Canada and the U.S., I must agree that dating in Vancouver is an underwhelming experience. A few things I've noticed:

- Yes, men in Vancouver dress sloppy. Why? Personally, I've found Vancouver male culture has a deep undercurrent of homophobia. I think many men here feel - whether they're aware of it or not - that there's something gay about dressing well. It shows a sensitivity to male aesthetics that I believe many guys here are uncomfortable with.

- The decline of chivalrous, formal dating is a good thing. Seriously, how is sitting across a table from someone you barely know, with conversation akin to a job interview, supposed to be fun? I'd much rather DO something together and see what kind of trouble that leads to...and yes, I'm happy to open doors and pay for things on the way if she's OK with that (and many women here are most definitely not!)

- I do find women here are tougher to approach. Their body language tends to be closed, non-invitational, and you have to overcome that. I think it's a vicious cycle: men don't approach, so women are very cautious when it does happen, which leads to men approaching even less, etc. The result? Men feel women are unapproachable, women feel men are sissies, and in the meantime both are sitting there waiting for the other to make a move.

by catfood on Jan 6 2012 at 1:30 PM

Too amusing...

"This evening, they're participating in another favourite local pastime—dissing Vancouver men."

Anyone else find it a little funny that their favourite pastime is dissing Vancouver men, and yet they piss and moan that none will approach them or buy them a round of drinks. Come on ladies, that sour puss and catty convo isn't exactly an invite to come say hi.

by cbjerrisgaard on Jan 6 2012 at 1:26 PM


Why are you complaining?

You can get all of the sex with none of the commitment as before. As long as you're handsome, not creepy, not clingy, and stylish, you can have sex with many women without needing to date. It is actually very convenient as a man to be able to live like this!

You have time for all of your interests, hobbies, business, with all of the benefits of a relationship!

by Sicklove on Jan 6 2012 at 1:11 PM

Great article. Really dead on.
One thing I think you missed; maybe you did it on purpose, is the idea of a man's income, as it relates to his ability to feel confident with women.
For men, wealth, power and self-confidence have been synonymous for ...well, forever, no?
As a "middle class" male living downtown, I walk the same streets as some of the wealthiest people in Canada.
There are condos for sale in Coal Harbour that start at 5 million (and you get a free Ferarri for moving in)!!
It can be discouraging to go out and buy a suit that you can afford, only to realize that its a relatively terrible suit, and your humble attempt at being the kind of superficial man that women in this city appear to be crazy for, has only made you feel ...superficial.
In Vancouver there is always something better, and you can see it and touch it, its right in front of you.
This is a problem.
For men, it think this triggers our pride.
I have to believe that I can be desirable to women, regardless of my income, so I wear t-shirts and ball-caps as a kind of proud symbol of my manliness, in spite of a relatively small bank balance. As a way of proclaiming:
"the suit does not make the man." It is necessary for men to make this affirmation, in order to deal properly with other men...
It's is difficult to live happily, confidently, when you're pinching pennies; walking to the No-Frills for Tuesdays sale meats while rich, and well dressed, men cruise the very same same streets in ludicrously expensive imported cars.
I have to believe that I am still worthy in spite of my obvious inability to obtain the lifestyle that these kinds of symbols represent.
The burden of expectation on men in Vancouver is unusually high. Surely in Toronto there is just as much wealth, but there is a larger middle ground, where income is concerned. In Halifax I imagine there is an even further equalization of incomes, so that everybody is more or less on the same page, in terms of their expectations.
I suppose this reply is a little disjointed. I really liked the article.
I think, male culture has spent the last 40,000 years or so making a civilized nest for women, mostly free from the dangers of other men or otherwise. Men have built the civilized world and nearly everything in it (good and bad). The roads, cars, buildings, sewers, airports, governments, laws, science ... the list goes on.
And thanks to the efforts of men, Women, like the ones mentioned in this article are the most completely free and socially empowered humans to ever walk the earth...especially those women living in Canada.
So, I say, If we Men want to take a break, kick back and play videogames while our newly liberated women work to define what a culture of free women is going to be like, then I say we've earned it. And perhaps women should do their best to be grateful in the meantime...

by cerealandmilk on Jan 6 2012 at 12:58 PM

Edited because of double post.

by cbjerrisgaard on Jan 6 2012 at 1:48 PM

I think men in Vancouver in general are pretty gentlemanly. When I open up a door for someone in conneticut they act like its a big deal, but in Vancouver no one bats an eye. I think it's pretty standard practice here imo. Hell my cousin runs to the other side to open the car door for his wife still.

Regarding aggressiveness in bars and clubs, this is due to one simple reason... Girls in Vancouver are stuck up! If anyone approaches them in the club they think they're a complete creep! My buddy from LA, who clubs a little too much, but has mastered the art of picking up girls visited Vanicouver last year. I told him he would love the city, as there are ALOT of good looking girls in Vancouver. He ended up having the worse time (clubbing) here and couldn't pick up anyone. Haha and this is someone who has mastered the art! Most girls are not open to meeting guys in clubs here.

It goes both ways too. I rarely have girls initiate conversation with me here, but this happens frequently in the states. Thus in turn, I rarely initiate conversation with girls I don't know here, knowing its usually a waste of my effort.

You ask why are the men in Vanocuver they way they are. I say largely it's because the women here are the way they are.

by Madddskillz on Jan 6 2012 at 12:22 PM

I'm a woman in her mid 30s who has recently moved away from the city. I didn't move because of the dating scene.

I'm sure there are many valid points in this article, but you lost me entirely when you quote Ronald Lee. As a "dating coach" he needs to take his own advice. Seriously aggressive, rude and to a point, tactless, Lee is NOT the man to hold up as a successful Vancouver man.

The article lost all credibility for me at that point.

by CMC on Jan 6 2012 at 12:14 PM

Ladies, I'm a little ambivalent to your woes.
For literally decades, us guys in our late-20's and early-to-mid-30's have had it drilled into our heads that women are equal to us in every way. And for the most part, respectful men agree with that.

But you can't have it both ways.
You can't expect us to treat you as 'equal' when you *expect* us to help you with your suitcases, hold the door open, pay for the date entirely, et al.

When you expect these things (as it seems the women in this article do), you confuse men. We're simple creatures; we don't understand how these things aren't related.

Do I help women with their things if they're struggling? Hold the door open? Pay for dates?
Absolutely. But I also help elderly men and women with their things if they're struggling. Hold the door open for *anyone* that's entering or exiting a building at the same time as I do. Pay for dates and pay for beers at the pub. Why? Because it's *polite*.

Sorry for that, I'll stop preaching.

As far as the rest of the article; yes, I agree with many points: since moving here from back East, I've noticed a lot of things about Vancouver (and the West coast in general)... most men are lazy flakes who wouldn't know a hard day's work if it smacked them in the face. And they *certainly* have no idea on how to dress.

I work in high-tech out here. I work with men who honestly think wearing wind pants and flip flops or shorts and a wrinkled t-shirt is appropriate. It floors me. I make a point of wearing something work-appropriate every day. So I feel your pain.

But here's some advice: if you see a well-dressed man out, and you're wondering why he won't talk to you... maybe he's like me: new to the region, doesn't know too many people, isn't sure what the 'dating culture' (as bullshit of a term I think that is) is here. Go say hello! Would it really demean you to do that?

Meet us closer to the middle.

Oh, and ladies: it's poor taste to bad mouth exes. Even if they deserve it.

by expatOntarian on Jan 6 2012 at 11:56 AM

This is a humorous article. I am a successful (and one could argue, good looking) male in the marketing industry, and I completely disagree with most of what these women are saying. A lot of successful guys I know all have the same complaints: Women in Vancouver are self-entitled snobs or gold diggers. Want to know what makes women in Vancouver unapproachable? They don't smile. They look the other direction when you look at them. They don't say thank you when you hold the door open for them. Men don't like approaching large groups of women and Vancouver women ALWAYS hang out in large packs. You're not Carrie Bradshaw, and this is not Sex and the City – women in Vancouver have become delusional thinking their life should be (or is) what they see on TV. Evidential by the examples produced in this article.

I always hold the door open for people, men and women. It's extremely rare when a woman says thank-you. When I walk into a pub, your body language speaks louder than words. Remember that.

I've traveled to 6 provinces and 27 states in North America, there is always a common theme: "Wow, these women are much friendlier than ones in Vancouver." Even in Los Angeles and New York. Every girl I have met and dated in Vancouver has never been from Vancouver – says a lot.

by Opinionated on Jan 6 2012 at 11:14 AM

I'd love to read the "other story."

by Trin82 on Jan 6 2012 at 10:19 AM

Blaming casually dressed men for the perceived deficiencies in Vancouver's dating scene is especially absurd in the city where Lululemon pants and Ugg boots are considered essential elements of female formal wear.

by wb on Jan 6 2012 at 8:41 AM

I've lived in Halifax, Saskatoon, Calgary, Toronto, Victoria and spent a lot of time out of country. I think the main thing is that there are more females than males here. There is real competition in some of the other places because there are so many males versus the number of attractive females. Here they seem plentiful and, at least in my experience, I don't have to do much to woo them. I often do with the special ones but I wouldn't have to. So I think the solution is for the women to hold us to a higher standard! Or for you guys to start competing harder for us. Supply and demand.

by sbotch on Jan 6 2012 at 2:57 AM

This article is spot on, but born and raised Vancouverites will tell you different. Coming from growing up in Victoria, the culture in Vancouver is quite a shock outside of the downtown core. In Vancouver it's way too cliquey--this is evident in the break up of the city and all the distinct neighbourhoods. People tend to stick to their 'own' and you see this everywhere. Asians with Asians, and Whites with Whites. Vancouver is not to blame, the history of the city has always been based on segregation. Not only that, add in the 10 months of dreary clouds and S.A.D. runs rampant. People dress down because the weather keeps you down.

Tourists see the happy side of Vancouver in the glitz and glam of downtown. But the reality is, Vancouver is a superficial city that's all about image. They are brainwashed by the local media here that hypes Vancouver as the best place to live. Yeah, it is a fantastic place to live--for two months of the year during summer. Want to go to a happier place? Visit WA State periodically, people there are so damn nice.

The friendliest people we've met in this city are the ones NOT from Vancouver. The locals here are too worried about pretending to be a Canucks fan or jumping on the latest trend. Vancouver needs culture. There is nothing bringing people together as everyone sticks to their own friends and hangouts. It's not easy meeting others in this city.

Oh, and a couple notes about Richmond. Never have I been to a place where they look down on YOU for not speaking Chinese/Mandarin. WTF? Last time I checked I was in Canada, FFS.

by Gerry on Jan 6 2012 at 2:27 AM

I'm one of those imported guys, so my perspective here is pretty atypical it would seem.

I'm in my early 30's, have a well-paying job, am driven, intellectual (and admittedly, geeky), friendly, polite and relatively outgoing, have a number of hobbies (none of which involve watching hockey), put actual effort into my appearance, and normally do dress well when I go out to the pub, restaurant, or club. If you look at my closet, my shirts out-number my t-shirts probably 4 to 1 - and they're all fitted, fashionable, and I wouldn't be caught dead wearing something that wasn't impeccably ironed.

That list probably hits most of the marks in this article (except for the hockey thing, sorry about that), but do you know what I've found? It makes very little difference. Not how genuinely interested in saying hi I am, not how much effort I put into my appearance, nor what I wear; women in Vancouver are still just as unapproachable and uninterested in conversation. Maybe the subject of this article is in fact so bad that they don't even know how to react when they are approached? I don't know, but it's certainly not a one-sided problem.

One thing mentioned in the article that especially resonates with my experiences is the friends-circle behaviour that's rampant in Vancouver, and the walls it puts up when you approach a couple of girls in a bar. The attitude is probably best described as "You are not one of my friends, and I'm in a conversation with someone who is". I'm more than happy to approach and strike up a conversation, so usually I'm the one from my group of friends who goes over first, and I've seen this with a remarkable frequency.

by Boulo on Jan 6 2012 at 2:17 AM

For every "Tracey" in marketing wearing an electric-blue dress flicking blond hair around, there's an equally well dressed guy in town. Likewise, for every man-boy in baggy t-shirt and baseball cap, there's female equivalent here too. The menfolk in town have this exact same discussion.

by wearethinkingthesamething on Jan 6 2012 at 1:12 AM

Whoah. The dating scene in vancouver may not be the easiest out there, but to place the lion's share of the blame on men is a falsity.The disfunction here is most definitely shared, I'd say 50-50 between the sexes.

With regards to approaching, I see respectful men (well dressed men) do it all the time at pubs, nightclubs, what have you. One can argue that perhaps their ability to converse isn't the best, but it's hard to say; quite often the men are brushed off before things can even escalate to that point. Usually its polite, but ask any guy, and I'm sure you'll get some horror stories about the amazingly rude reactions they've received. I know I have mine. In my travels I have found women in other cities and countries to be much more receptive; the US is better, and places like Brazil are great. No aloofness or subtle hair tosses to grab your attention there.

The other side of the coin is, why approach a woman that may or may not be interested (and may treat you rudely for your troubles), when other women are willing to take the initiative? Vancouver does have its snooty side, but there are also a lot of women here that are willing to go up and talk to men (fully 1/3 to half the women I've dated have initiated contact). Which do you think I'll spend more of my time on - chasing a girl that may or may not even want to have a conversation with me, or conversing with a woman that I already know is interested in getting to know me?

I will agree that men are confused when it comes to the traditional dating methodology. We live in a society where women are taught to go after what they want; why wouldn't we expect the same in the dating realm? To this day I still find it fascinating that some of the women I've dated that held high powered career positions still yearned for the traditional male/female dating and relationship methodologies. Comes off as instinctually contradictory to me.

by thirtiesmale on Jan 5 2012 at 11:05 PM

I'm still shocked that there are only 2 comments on the article... and from two males who were "imported" and now "exported".

This was a very well written piece. I enjoyed reading your article and the linguistic flair you use to unravel the Vancouver dating scene. I especially enjoyed your point about "a truth universally acknowledged that a single woman, whether she lives in Paris, Hong Kong, or San Francisco, is convinced that the single men in her town are uniquely deficient in the qualities she seeks in a mate." I assure you when we ask the men who kind of women are they looking for, they are all looking for the same one. That one girl who is non-judgemental, supportive, giving and whom they will be proud to bring home to their moms.

There is one arena in which Vancouverties, both male and female, date very well in - the business world. We woo and flirt with clients and customers all day hoping that we can close the sale, bring it to the cash register, sign that contract, and make them happy. If only we took stock of our skills in sales, marketing, customer service, and business development and applied it to our personal lives.

by smallcdnvoice on Jan 5 2012 at 5:12 PM

A guy's (who now lives elsewhere) opinion...

I lived in Vancouver for a few years and noticed a lack of assertiveness on the part of a lot of males. It rubbed off (a bit) on me, though the fitness culture did (a LOT of) wonders. Though, I have seen a lot of guys help out in difficult situations.

The main problem is the casual "dress code" most guys have when going out. They do not make an effort to smarten up for an evening in town and... It impacts their overall demeanor.

Well dressed and presented Vancouver Women, you should be a bit more open in showing your interest in guys. You can always decline a date!

by TheRoamer83 on Jan 4 2012 at 11:06 PM

As a guy, a few of the points in the article are valid. I lived in Vancouver for a few years and I was struck by an overall lack of assertiveness on the part of many males... To the point that it rubbed off on me a bit. On the flip side, the fitness culture did wonders for me.

The main problem is male casualness, when it comes to going out. Most caucasian guys did - and STILL do - not make an effort to smarten up in the evening. For many it is both a dress code and a frame of mind. Though I always stepped it up a notch or two, I needed a holiday in Europe for a refresher.

Women dressed to the nines and a lack of open body language? Yes. Women, sport a smile more often and be open to conversation. You still have the right to say "No" to someone who asks you out!

by TheRoamer83 on Jan 4 2012 at 10:43 PM