Vancouver Magazine

Jorge, I think you're one of the very few men in Vancouver that has the balls to approach ladies to say hi at coffee shops (or to tell them to shut up at the library -hah!). I appreciate the frustration that the small minority of you guys must have from the frigid responses, but I say, keep it going! I doubt every single woman in France, Mexico, Italy, etc that gets approached by a stranger stops to have a 20 minute conversation. But I appreciate that Vancouver is a bit of a close-minded anomaly (in terms of both genders) and these kinds of conversations might hopefully make everyone slowly, but surely, relax a little and be less uptight about meeting new friends, etc.

Not sure if I should find comfort in the fact that other men seem to be on the same page, or depressed that I may grow old alone in Vancouver. I divorced a few years ago and went back to school, so the first two years as a newly divorced man immersed in school and didn't look (which I'm told erroneously is the time when you're supposed to miraculously meet a women--not sure how that's supposed to happen when Vancouver women never take the initiative.)

After school finished I figured it was time to put myself out there as I'd spent some time on me and had time to heal emotionally. I read some books on dating and meeting women, actively worked on breaking out of my shell and approaching women and striking up conversations, and I think I'm a pretty good conversationalist and make an effort to be a good listener. So over a year later, after speed dating events, internet dating sites, mixers and just asking out women that I've met in public, I have a whole lot of nothing to show for it. I got one lousy date out of all that. Anyone will tell you that no one will continue an activity where they expend an enormous amount of time and energy and are met with nothing but failure.

So lately I find myself very despondent and depressed about my lack of a dating life and have given up. The only glimmer of hope has been some of the foreign women I've met or French Canadian girls who have at least been friendly. I'm now planning a trip to Eastern Europe and, hopefully, Latin America down the road. I'm either going to spend the rest of my life alone or meet a quality women thousands of miles from Vancouver, because I feel I'm about as likely to be struck by lightning as to actually wind up with a Vancouver girlfriend.

I've been told by women I've come across who weren't available that I was good looking, to really good looking and they volunteered that, I wasn't fishing for compliments. I'm athletic and work out every day and watch what I eat. I'm 41 but people usually guess early 30s and I'm well groomed and have a bit of money and a good job. I'm respectful and a good guy with some great friends. While I can meet new guy friends with ease, it's damned near impossible to get a woman to be open and friendly in this town. I'm in agreement with the other comments, that it's the frostiness of Vancouver women that creates the type of passive men they complain about. Even guys I've talked to who were from other cities and countries started out initially very outgoing and approached lots of women because that worked for them back home. After being shot down repeatedly, they too went into shells. I've met a lot of guys who've drawn the same conclusions as me, that it's not worth the time and effort meeting Vancouver women and we'd all just rather hang out with our buddies and do hobbies.

I would love to have a special woman in my life, but I just don't think it's going to happen here.

Though this was not meant to be a rebuttal, I'm glad that someone offered up another perspective. Naturally my curiousity was peaked at who this @AmigoJor was, and so off to Twitter I went on my search. I had to laugh once I saw his photo: I remember seeing Jorge once at a social media gathering for non-profit types. I thought he was cute and intelligent and would have approached him were it not for the rather unfriendly look he had on his face the entire time. Perhaps I should have given him the benefit of the doubt? Lesson learned.

Don't give up Jorge, otherwise, there's always Montreal.

@ZAPH i can't say that i would agree with your statement. I have met people on the bus and have remained friends with them for years now. one that i met i've been friends with her for over 4 years now, but guess what, she was an exchange student from japan at that time and she was with her group when i met her.

vancouver women are just a whole different level from what i can say.

Unmotivated, low sex drive, paranoia, anti-social. Judging by the commentary, it appears Vancouver culture shares many of the same symptoms associated with marijuana addiction. Perhaps coincidentally, I see a similar kind of attitude in San Fran.

Whatever the cause, this is a general cultural issue that is not isolated to inter-sex interactions, but extends more broadly to Vancouver's business culture and a general "Work not so hard, play not so hard" attitude that sucks the dynamism out of the city. I travel all over the world and I recently moved here from New York, but Blandcouver has me eying the door, and I know many ex-Vancouverites who have left because they find Vancouver's insipid culture to be oppressive and bleak.

Rob Leclerc
robert.leclerc@gmail.com

None of this addresses the root causes of this profound loss of social norms and structured behavior. Gender roles, culture, and technology have changed so fast that we no longer need to follow any rules. Adapt, or lose.

I agree with the readers who commented on the inappropriateness of approaching women in public places such as transit and the beach. Women deal with a considerable amount of harassment in public, ranging from mildly annoying to life threatening. When I am at the beach, I just want to be left alone. I do not care to have my space intruded on by a stranger, no matter how well meaning a stranger. There have been times when I have made the effort to be friendly to men who approached me in public. Most of the time, I have regretted those efforts. The men in question would rudely proposition me, touch me inappropriately, or attempt to follow me home. If I talked about those experiences to others, they would often blame me, saying that my 'approachable, inviting attitude' and 'naivete' were to blame. In short, it is the sense of entitlement that some men have around women. They feel that women 'owe' them attention in public. This is a huge problem. Please leave us alone. Join a group or meet women through your circle of friends, or go on a dating site. Please leave me alone when I am commuting to work. I just want to listen to music and not be bothered. Thanks!

I though this was a funny and well-written article but I have to agree with the comment from Bijjy. While admittedly pretty excessive, a lot of our defensiveness really does come from experience. Like the time I gave my number to a guy I met at the beach and he spent the next few weeks leaving explicit pornographic voicemails on my phone on a daily basis. Or the guy who started up what seemed like a friendly conversation that somehow ended with me listening to a 20 minute vendetta on life that was so bizarre as to be almost completely unanswerable. Or the older guy who seemed nice enough until he launched into the many reasons he likes young women "around his daughters age." I could go on. Now, I know MOST guys are NOT like this, but in my experience, of the pool of guys who are actually gutsy enough to approach a random woman on the street/beach/bus, you've got about a 50% chance of getting a Jorge Amigo, and a 50% chance of getting a bonafide creeper or someone who just wants to listen to themselves talk for awhile. And some days, you just don't feel like playing those odds. It sucks that the nice gents suffer from this and we women definitely need to stop assuming everyone is going to be the latter, but the creepers of the world (who range from annoying to actually dangerous) need to share some of the blame too.

And Bijjy has it totally right - coffee shops, volleyball teams, house parties (and, I would add, the many casual-style pubs and lounges in our great city) are perfect environments for casual conversation in a safe, congenial social setting. Buses and beaches, on the other hand, are not ideal. Women are already in a somewhat vulnerable/exposed position and likely to feel put on the spot. On a bus, your conversation is almost guaranteed to be overheard by the rest of the people who are often sitting silently or texting or whatever. I don't think I'm a particularly shy person, but definitely find it embarrassing to be picked up in front of an audience of 30+ strangers with front row seats to your awkward first conversation. (Same goes for airplanes, by the way). At the beach women are also in an immediately awkward position because we are physically exposed right from the start, in the sense of being half (or nearly fully) naked. I know it's hard to believe, but there really is something inexplicably liberating and wonderful about being able to lie by the ocean and soak in the sun without layers of clothing on that is not just about attracting men. (If I could do it in my own backyard, I totally would, but like most apartment dwelling vancouverites I don't have a backyard….so here we are). Anyway, I would say if you're approaching a woman at the beach, there's a chance she's going to eat it up because that's what she's there for, but also a chance she's going to feel super vulnerable and insecure because she is fully on display and may not be 700% confident about her exposed body. By all means, still go for it if you want, but don't take it personally if you get rebuffed or a shy/awkward reaction…. everyone's understanding of what's "romantic" is different, and I bet when you meet the right lady, she'll love your approach (and by that I mean, if you meet a woman who likes being picked up on the bus, marry her immediately!).

I got asked out for "a coffee" by a girl in Vancouver, wich in Europe - where I'm originally from - means like "I like you as a person, lets hang out and maybe become friends". In her idea, it was the context for a full date. And I was not interested in "dating" since I years. These strict idea's of what an exchange between two persons can - and must - mean, bothered me a lot when I lived in Vancouver. The trust in the fact that relationships will grow organically - as well as friendships do, seem to lack. Everything is a bit estimated and calculated beforehand. I expected a bit more of an "relaxed" attitude from people that are being stoned all the time.

I find these two articles are a sad example of the lack of social fibre that Vancouver has as a large Canadian city. Unfortunately the content in both articles is true and both come down to a lack of socialization skills by both men and women. If you have travelled to any other big cities in the world you will find people much approachable, much more outgoing and there are definitely NO articles about whether their populations (men or women) suck.

Do you think they have articles like this in New York, Paris, Milan, San Fran? I think we should be ashamed that we need to write articles on whether men or women suck in our city! Where is the friendly Canadian Spirit we are known for? Why in Vancouver can't we be social with our fellow Canadians. We can't talk to each other on the bus, at the beach or at a park? Have you ever run into another Canadian in another country on a bus, at a beach or a park? You are very social when you run into a Canadian on the bus in Argentina, the beach in Bali, or the park in New York. You are often glad and excited to see them. So why can't you be social with them in Vancouver?

This is the Number #1 downfall that Vancouver has, its social scene. People don't talk to each other, they don't make eye contact and they definitely aren't friendly, guys or girls. Ironically in Canada, there is no other city as "cold" as Vancouver when it comes to socializing and making new friends.

While we banter back and forth on who "sucks" more people in Montreal are meeting new people at concerts, people in Winnipeg are chatting at grocery stores and people in Edmonton are making friends while helping cars out of snow banks. I say grow up Vancouver, quit acting like teenagers and start being nice and friendly to each other.

How can we live in the BEST CITY in the world when all the men and women suck?

Approaching someone who is listening to music, reading a book or doing anything else that requires them to not have someone speaking to them in order to continue doing is actually rude. And thinking that they owe it to you to put down what they are doing just because you approached them is unbelievable.
Your attitude toward women at the beach is grossly sexist. Suggesting that a woman who maintains a fit figure and wears a swimsuit to the beach is a hypocrite for not wanting to be hit on while sunbathing is just disgusting.
There are many reasons why women in Vancouver react negatively when you approach them. First of all, most people (not just women) dislike the ultra chatty bus guy. People don't like the bus. They ride it to get where they are going, not to make friends. Everyone is tired and they just want to listen to their music and close their eyes while they bus in to work. Being pretty doesn't make someone less deserving of this.
A commenter above mentioned the enormous number of weirdos who absolutely will hassle you and sometimes assault you in broad daylight if you let them engage you in conversation. Every woman in Vancouver has had numerous encounters with these people. There are literally thousands of them. You might be the one normal "nice" guy among all the crazies but don't expect us to know that!
Now you're probably going to assume that I am one of these women who looks at you like you're an axe murderer when you try to chat, but I am actually not. A great many of my friends were met at the beach, in parks, on the street...etc. Maybe it's because I have lived in East Van long enough to be familiar with and no longer terrified by the weirdo approach. Maybe it's because I am not afraid to tell a person who is being rude (demanding that I put down my reading on account of them) that I'm not here to make friends today. I speak to people in public very comfortably all the time. I'm very comfortable telling a man "Thanks but no thanks" if an awkward date proposal arises and I'm okay with being perceived as unfriendly which will inevitably happen because women are neither allowed to refuse nor accept your conversation without it somehow blowing up in our faces.
A little anecdote of my own: I was in a coffee shop waiting for my boyfriend to arrive. I had an enormous bouquet of flowers with me that he had sent to my work earlier for my birthday. The guy at the table next to me struck up conversation. We chatted for about 10 minutes (about what, I don't remember. Music maybe.) Eventually the conversation got around to the enormous bouquet on the table. He asked who they were for. I told him they were for me, that it was my birthday and my boyfriend had sent them. He immediately let out a huff, turned to his laptop and silently proceeded to click away angrily on his computer and ignore me as he quickly sucked back the last of his coffee then hurriedly packed up his things and stormed out. You see, by responding at all to his ice breaker, I was flirting and should have known better than to speak to a man in public if I didn't intend for it to end in sex. What a silly tease. Setting aside the fact that this man was extraordinarily stupid to see a woman with a bouquet of flowers and not think they might have been a gift from a boyfriend, this type of encounter is all too common. Any woman who occasionally engages a stranger has had more or less this encounter. The number of men who believe that friendliness is the same as flirting and that a woman owes them a date simply because she responded positively to being spoken to is overwhelming. Again, maybe you're not that guy, but you have all the other guys who are that guy to thank for the fact that much of the time, women feel as though they are better off just ignoring you.
Of course I'm not blaming all of this on men. Women in Vancouver need to learn how to boldly but graciously turn down a date. That way they don't have to live in fear of being asked out. Unfortunately, however, to do this we also need to learn how to deal with the immensely sexist and childish emotional outbursts of the men they turn down. I guess to sum this all up, yes women and men in Vancouver both suck when it comes to dating. But your article failed to shed any light on this. All you succeeded in doing was to illustrate to us the many ways in which you suck at dating.

The universal fact is if a man is not attractive to her, no woman will be interested in conversation.

Hm. I find this interesting as a woman who was born and raised in Vancouver. I've been away for 6 years overseas and honestly I don't think this phenomenon is special in any way to Vancouverites. Unfortunately if you're not attractive to her no women will be interested in conversation. I think this is pretty universal.

This article does make some good points, but let's be honest here: Vancouver is a weird place, with weird men. I have struck up conversations with the random guy who approached me and who seemed perfectly nice, only to have them say something crazy or lewd a second later. I have been followed home five times, once by a guy who pretended to masturbate while skateboarding and moaned disgustingly. Was I dressed provocatively, throwing out signals that begged them to harass me? Nope. I was wearing jeans and a coat, and happily minding my own business. Perhaps some women are snotty or rude, but some of us are just wondering what the hell these guys are up to, striking up an awkward conversation with us. Some of them sound mentally unbalanced and expect to women to be riveted, or to appreciate their efforts, which is a signal the guy is a bit off.

Finally, I absolutely agree with the first article regarding how men are terrible in Vancouver. I, too, was starting to wonder what was wrong with me when I couldn't get hit on recently. Then, I realized I'd moved into a hipster neighbourhood where everyone -- guys and girls alike -- were too busy looking down at me to be polite. And when I open the door to go through, an idiot man-child who is twice my size will bolt through with nary a "thank you", or mow me down on the sidewalk rather than giving me a little space to walk in the opposite direction. They call themselves men, but they act like petulant, self-entitled children who have tantrums when they don't get their way. It makes me want to hunt down their parents and smack them for raising guys with such poor manners. I sincerely hope I find a nice man who has recently moved here, or that I move to some city where there are more men of true character.

Fantástico Jorge!
Since the first day I landed in this city (that I love) I felt that Latin and Mediterranean people have something to bring from our culture and share with vancouverites so we all benefit from the best of everywhere we luckily have here.

I'm not talking about the "latin lover" cliché but friendlier and warmer spontaneous relationships in general. A smile and a bit of chit chat never killed anybody.

This summer I'm planning to print t-shits saying: "Don't talk to strangers, just in case you make any friends"

Now we have an extra challenge: teach this city what is a real good coffee. But this is another story.

So, as a dating blogger, I figured it would be better to just write a post than a never-ending response (because I tend to ramble...I'm a rambler...ramble ramble ramble...word has lost all meaning)...so...yeah...here it is:

He Sucks, She Sucks, We All Suck Vancouver

http://www.somethingshedated.com/2012/01/he-sucks-she-sucks-we-all-suck....

I have to admit, you're absolutely right. I do find that on the rare, rare occasion that a guy speaks to me on the bus or on the street, I am a bit wary at first. But I have tried to chat with guys on the bus as well, and I find the same thing happens; they look at me like if I'm crazy enough to talk to a stranger on the bus, I'm not someone they want to get stuck talking to. Maybe it's because the only people who have the guts to approach anyone on the street are usually asking for change, and so our first instinct is to think "what do they want from me?"

Yesterday, while walking up Commercial Drive, I tried an experiment. I tried smiling at every guy I saw, whether or not he was my "type" (and I wish it was otherwise, but I find very, very few guys are my "type"). Only one returned a smile, clearly surprised. The other five or so didn't even make eye contact or look at me long enough to even see that I was looking in their direction, let alone notice a smile.

We are a city of outsiders. We don't know how to get in, and we take our social cues from the people around us, who are doing the exact same thing.

Time for me to start going out to coffee shops more. Thanks for your post.

I read the article and found it interesting. I think anytime you interact with strangers in a certain country though, you need to be tactful in the way you do it. Going up to a girl who is sitting alone with her picnic spread at a beach and inviting yourself to join her just because you can do it in France is like going nude to any beach in Vancouver just because you can do it in France, or drinking alcohol in front of the cops on the street, or bringing your dog to any restaurant just because you can do it in France.

Same with a guy going up to a random guy and slapping him on the back and starting convo. You can't do it here just because you can do it in Mexico. Political and historical climate dictate this. Our strict alcohol policies stem from bad historical fur trader / first nations incidents. Likewise, I theorize that Vancouver females' heightened suspicion of male strangers making conversation comes from things like having extraordinarily high numbers of mentally ill people roaming the streets (closure of Riverview, etc). If you ask any girl, the majority of the time, that nice guy making convo is someone mentally ill, or some needy guy hoping any girl will talk to him, or a creepy guy like such: http://tinyurl.com/77euw28.

It's hard not to immediately reject someone when this pattern happens consistently. I have been walking to school in broad daylight outside Harbour Centre and been approached by a man who started chatting, then grabbed my arm in a tight lock, and started screaming at me, saying it was my fault the world was ending. I know another girl (tall blonde outgoing successful girl) who, on separate occasions, was stalked by men on the street, had one try to run her over with a car, and had one chat her up in a friendly manner on Davie St. last new years (clean cut friendly guy, apparently appeared to be gay), only to steal her wallet and push her out of the way; she fell, got a concussion, and now has short term memory loss.

Of course there is the occasional random nice guy from outside of Vancouver who just wants to chat. This happened to me on the N-17 bus last month.. a huge crowd of partiers got on my bus at 4 am, and a guy immediately spotted me, intentionally sat next to me, and chatted all the way home about his adventures as a musician. No ulterior motive, just a friendly chat, and he sauntered off cheerfully with a wave. This is RARE. I was at first a bit standoffish, but later warmed up.

Most people can recall a time when they were approached say, on public transit, by someone seemingly normal, started talking, only to slowly find there was something intrinsically creepy about them, or they are mentally ill. And then you try to slowly back out of the conversation but it's too late.. you're trapped. Therefore, it is hard to strike a delicate balance between being open to a potentially nice conversation, and being on guard enough to be able to exit quickly. As for where good places are for guys to meet girls, Jorge's example that women act totally differently in coffee shops proves it is the environment and context that dictates the reaction.

If Jorge was smart, he would look for events where multiple separate social networks meet in a common place for a certain activity: Joining a volleyball team on Spanish Banks or going with friends to a house party. Girls are more relaxed and open to meeting people, because the fact that he is already clicked in to a social network and they already share mutual friends is instant proof that the guy is not a sociopath. And that's all girls really want in such a situation: Safety, security, and no time wasted. They don't act as they do just to be a bitch.

I read the above article and found it interesting. I think anytime you interact with strangers in a certain country though, you need to be tactful in the way you do it. Going up to a girl who is sitting alone with her picnic spread at a beach and inviting yourself to join her just because you can do it in France is like going nude to any beach in Vancouver just because you can do it in France, or drinking alcohol in front of the cops on the street, or bringing your dog to any restaurant just because you can do it in France.

Same with a guy going up to a random guy and slapping him on the back and starting convo. You can't do it here just because you can do it in Mexico. Political and historical climate dictate this. Our strict alcohol policies stem from bad historical fur trader / first nations incidents. Likewise, I theorize that Vancouver females' heightened suspicion of male strangers making conversation comes from things like having extraordinarily high numbers of mentally ill people roaming the streets (closure of Riverview, etc). If you ask any girl, the majority of the time, that nice guy making convo is someone mentally ill, or some needy guy hoping any girl will talk to him, or a creepy guy like such: http://tinyurl.com/77euw28.

It's hard not to immediately reject someone when this pattern happens consistently. I have been walking to school in broad daylight outside Harbour Centre and been approached by a man who started chatting, then grabbed my arm in a tight lock, and started screaming at me, saying it was my fault the world was ending. I know another girl (tall blonde outgoing successful girl) who, on separate occasions, was stalked by men on the street, had one try to run her over with a car, and had one chat her up in a friendly manner on Davie St. last new years (clean cut friendly guy, apparently appeared to be gay), only to steal her wallet and push her out of the way; she fell, got a concussion, and now has short term memory loss.

Of course there is the occasional random nice guy from outside of Vancouver who just wants to chat. This happened to me on the N-17 bus last month.. a huge crowd of partiers got on my bus at 4 am, and a guy immediately spotted me, intentionally sat next to me, and chatted all the way home about his adventures as a musician. No ulterior motive, just a friendly chat, and he sauntered off cheerfully with a wave. This is RARE. I was at first a bit standoffish, but later warmed up.

Most people can recall a time when they were approached say, on public transit, by someone seemingly normal, started talking, only to slowly find there was something intrinsically creepy about them, or they are mentally ill. And then you try to slowly back out of the conversation but it's too late.. you're trapped. Therefore, it is hard to strike a delicate balance between being open to a potentially nice conversation, and being on guard enough to be able to exit quickly. As for where good places are for guys to meet girls, Jorge's example that women act totally differently in coffee shops proves it is the environment and context that dictates the reaction.

If Jorge was smart, he would look for events where multiple separate social networks meet in a common place for a certain activity: Joining a volleyball team on Spanish Banks or going with friends to a house party. Girls are more relaxed and open to meeting people, because the fact that he is already clicked in to a social network and they already share mutual friends is instant proof that the guy is not a sociopath. And that's all girls really want in such a situation: Safety, security, and no time wasted. They don't act as they do just to be a bitch.

Dude, I wanted to buy this argument. After the last article I was waiting - waiting! - for some brave soul to step to the plate and say that maybe, maybe, all Vancouverites take themselves too seriously. That maybe Vancouver women don't necessarily mature much more quickly than the men. I wanted that so badly. And I saw this headline, and I was so excited.

And then I read it. Man, picking up anyone on the bus is straight creepy. They're not in public to be hit on. Leave them alone.

Dude, I wanted to buy this argument. After the last article I was waiting - waiting! - for some brave soul to step to the plate and say that maybe, maybe, all Vancouverites take themselves too seriously. That maybe Vancouver women don't necessarily mature much more quickly than the men. I wanted that so badly. And I saw this headline, and I was so excited.

And then I read it. Man, picking up anyone on the bus is straight creepy. They're not in public to be hit on. Leave them alone.

Perhaps that is one of the reasons why same-sex relationships are so prominent in Vancouver. Because same gender conversations are not as threatening. Then women ask why is it that all the good men are gay. All that being said, I can understand the challenge for Vancouver women - to be alone and talked to in public - what if you're not careful and something bad happens, can she risk it? Where is the balance? Gut feeling? Or maybe she simply was not that into you, sorry Jorge.

I'm honoured to have inspired such a well-written, interesting response to what was, at best, a poorly-written, sexist, inaccurate portrayal of dating in Vancouver. Couldn't have put it into better words myself, even if I'd tried.